Managing conflict with a partner with ADHD

Conflict can be uncomfortable. But it’s a necessary part of life that can have great outcomes. ADHD often comes with trouble with executive function, emotional regulation, time perception, and more. This can make conflict even tougher to face. 

Senior certified Gottman relationship therapist Michael McNulty walks us through the research on which the Gottman Method is based — and what it means for relationships.

Listen to Cate and Michael as they explore how conflict can change with ADHD, and the four horsemen of divorce — each with their own antidote.

Related resources

• Trouble with self-regulation: What to know

• The Gottman Institute 

• Michael’s website, chicagorelationshipcenter.com

Timestamps

(03:34) What is the Gottman Method?

(06:00) The research the Gottman Method is based on

(09:42) ADHD and the Gottman Method

(12:54) Executive function and conflict

(15:22) Time perception and conflict

(16:20) What is “turning away and turning towards”?

(19:13) The four horsemen of divorce

(20:32) The first horseman: Criticism

(23:26) The second horseman: Defensiveness

(24:50) The third horseman: Contempt

(27:48) The fourth horseman: Stonewalling

(29:11) Where you can find Michael

We love hearing from our listeners. Email us at sorryimissedthis@understood.org.

Episode transcript

Cate: Hey, everybody, and welcome back to "Sorry, I Missed This." Today, we're going to be having some hard conversations because today we are talking about resolving conflict. I just wanted to know, what do we do about it? How do we learn those skills in the first place? Where do those skills come from?

And so, to do that, I'm so excited to introduce you to Michael McNulty. He's our guest today. Michael is the founder of the Chicago Relationship Center and an advanced trainer for the Gottman Institute. He works with couples to help resolve conflicts, resolve resentments, and grow their relationships into something healthier and stronger. And so, I'm so excited to have him today.

I hate conflict. I hate it. I will do anything and everything in my power to avoid conflict up to agreeing to things that I didn't do or didn't say just to be like, "Yeah, you know what? I did do that. And I'm so sorry," just to end the conversation. And that's not healthy, dear listener.

And so, when I started learning about ADHD, when I started learning about how ADHD and executive functioning differences and emotional regulation and all of those things tie into our ability to resolve conflict, I was frankly really surprised and like, I've been doing this for a while, but it kind of makes sense, right? Like what happens in conflict? Somebody gets mad at somebody else. Maybe you said something or did something or forgot something or said you were going to do something and forgot to do it, whatever it may be.

And so, I find that inadvertently, even though I'm a very conflict-averse person, I often find myself in conflicts — I don't say because of, but in relation to my ADHD. And that shows up a lot in my relationship with my husband, and I know that there have been times where I have been unkind and uncompassionate and unwilling to listen because of that emotional dysregulation.

But the thing that I always get asked and the thing that I have to think about and I think that we as ADHDers have a responsibility to sort of puzzle out in our brain is when is it an explanation and when does it become an excuse? How do we, as people with ADHD, take responsibility for our actions and find ways to support our executive functioning and our emotional regulation and all of that in the throes of conflict?

Before I introduce you to Michael, I want to say one more thing. If you are a person who is afraid of conflict, who runs from conflict, it's OK. There are skills, and there are things that you can do to learn to be a better self-advocate, you don't have to bend over backwards to please people. You don't have to bend over backwards to avoid the negative implications of conflict because sometimes conflict can be healthy and conflict can be useful and conflict can be powerful.

And that is why I'm so excited to bring you this conversation today. Because I think avoiding conflict or working our whole lives to never get into any fights ever, it's also doing ourselves a disservice. So, it's complicated, it's nuanced, but I hope that you learn a little bit of something today here on "Sorry, I Missed This."

Thank you so much for being here, Michael.

Michael: Oh, Cate, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

(03:34) What is the Gottman Method?

Cate: I'm so excited to talk to you. But before we start, I want to let our listeners know if you haven't heard of the Gottman Institute, the Gottman Institute, Michael, I think you'll agree, it's a pretty big deal, yeah?

Michael: It sure is. Yeah. Yeah.

Cate: So, the Gottman Method for healthy relationships is a form of couples-based therapy and education for couples therapists, and it's specifically derived from the relationship research of psychologist John Gottman. So, the goals of the Gottman Method are really interesting because they're: to disarm conflicting verbal communication, increase intimacy, respect, and affection, remove barriers that create a feeling of stagnancy, and create heightened empathy and understanding within the context of the relationship.

And yes, I got those off the website and I read them to you, dear listener, because I can't remember that much stuff. But so anyway, Michael, the Gottman Method is fascinating because it seems like it's really couched in good clear communication while also being couched in kindness and empathy. Can you talk to me a little bit about it?

Michael: We have to remember that John Gottman really was the first person to study relationships back in 1972 when he and his collaborator, Dr. Bob Levinson, began to study relationships. And part of why they did this was because at the time there were like six studies, you know, there about a thousand studies, but only about six of them were statistically meaningful. And the biggest finding was that women who are well-dressed are more likely to divorce. And that was all the information that was out there at the time.

Cate: What?

Michael: You know. And so, people had these schools of thought around how to manage and help couples, and they were doing things that were just so not helpful. There was one guy, George Bach, who wrote the book "The Intimate Enemy," and he had these couples come in and use these foam bats to kind of hit each other to express their anger. So, one would say, you know, "You're not taking out the trash" and they whack, you know, and then the other person might say, "We're not having enough sex," whack!

And it was all based on the idea that if people could get angry, it would be cathartic and the folks would be closer. But the reality is that the research tells us that releasing anger isn't necessarily cathartic. And so it was all based on something that wasn't true, and yet it was very popular at the time. These bats are called, I think, batakas, and every once in a while they'll pop up on a TV show or something and you'll see them.

(06:00) The research the Gottman Method is based on

But John was very, very concerned. And so, they decided to very systematically look at couples and why relationships succeed and fail. And what they discovered was that conflict is ongoing in relationship for the most part. So, what they found was that 69% of the issues that come up between partners are perpetual issues or perpetual problems. So, the easily solved issues only happened 31% of the time.

Cate: That freaks me out though, a little bit because 69%, that's a lot. That's a lot of the time. So, is that something that I, if I'm in a relationship that might be struggling, does that mean that we're doomed to failure? Does that mean that we're totally screwed? Is it all doom and gloom? I guess is maybe what I'm asking.

Michael: No, it's not all doom and gloom. It's just the way that it is. Basically, if people are in dialog about their conflict, you know, even when they have perpetual conflict, if people are in dialog, a respectful dialog where everyone's feeling understood and everyone's feeling appreciated, then they're fine. It's when people get gridlocked, it's when the conversations turn very negative. And what happens is people know, "Oh gosh, that issue is coming up, this is going to go nowhere good."

So, they use poor communication. They get physiologically aroused or what we call flooded. The heartbeat beats go up above 100 beats per minute. They have these other symptoms that are characteristic of fight or flight. And it's when people have too many gridlock problems over time that that's when they're more at risk of ending a long term love relationship.

But if they can shift the gridlock into dialog, you know, then they generally do OK. So, the information is actually very hopeful because a lot of people come in thinking, "Gosh, is it me? Is it this hard? Should there be this many differences?" And the answer is yes, there are that many differences, you know, and no one seems to know that. People seem to think that like 80% of the time it should be straightforward. And that's just not the case.

Cate: What are the types of things that we are talking about in terms of that 69% of disagreement? Are we talking about who takes out the garbage? Are we talking about how much sex should we have? Or are we talking about what religion should we raise our kids in? Like, what are the sticking points for couples?

Michael: It is all of the above. Everything you just mentioned would fit into that category. It's really any issue that has to do with the two partners managing their life together. One person might be wanting to send a child to a parochial school whereas the other person wants to send a child to a public school. One person may be a spender and another person may be a saver. And these are the kinds of things that people don't really get to know about each other until they get really into the relationship and really share a life together.

And one of the people I did not mention at a certain point after John and Bob did their research and developed their mathematical model, which predicts whether or not partners will separate or remain together, Julie Gottman asked John Gottman, "John, have you ever considered you do anything that would help people with this research?" And he said, "No, I've never considered it." And she said, "Would you like to?" And he said, "No."

And then he always jokes and he says they compromised and together they developed this theory because of that. But he was leery because there was so much bad couples therapy out there. But Julie is like an amazing therapist and knew couples really well. And so, the two of them took all the research and developed this method to be able to help partners. And part of it is working on friendship. Part of it's working on conflict. Part of it is working on establishing a meaningful relationship.

(09:42) ADHD and the Gottman Method

Cate: One of the major tenets of the Gottman Method is that couples require — I'm going to read it off my piece of paper, so don't get it wrong — five times more positive interactions than negative.

Michael: Right.

Cate: With the thought being that negative emotions like defensiveness and contempt hurt a relationship more than positive ones heal, which is why we shouldn't be bopping each other with bats if we get mad, right?

Michael: Right.

Cate: But so, I'm curious about how this works in context with ADHD, particularly when we start to talk about how ADHD can affect emotional regulation and that sense of flooding and that sense of gridlock.

Michael: What John and Bob did with their research was that they set up a lab at Indiana University in 1972, and they developed this research protocol where basically couples would come in and they'd have a complicated discussion and an everyday discussion. That was all video. They looked at the behaviors that were occurring, body language.

And it turns out that the people who are really doing well with relationships had five times as many positive things going on in terms of body language and statements. And they were surprised by that finding because that means there has to be a whole lot of positivity to be able to be in dialog and to be effective in terms of working with their problems together. And so, that's where that statistic comes from.

And so it's just important to remember that friendship and a very positive connection really help in a relationship. You're always going to have conflict and you have to be doing things each day, really, that sort of promote friendship and positivity. And those can't stop because people are in conflict. You know, people just have to think of conflict is a fact of life and that's how it works.

Cate: It's so interesting to me to hear you talk about this idea of conflict just sometimes has to exist in a room. And that can be so hard for women, especially with ADHD, because we deal a lot with stuff like rejection sensitivity. We deal a lot with this idea that we have to be fixers, we have to deal with it immediately.

And so, a lot of studies have shown that, especially late-diagnosed women with ADHD, we tend to be people pleasers. We tend to have this like immediate need that if anything bad is going on, we have to fix it right away. Or like that danger signals start sort of flooding out of us.

Michael: Right. And if that isn't discovered and understood, then the partners can really be very lost. The type of women that you're referring to can grow more and more resentful and more and more depleted. If someone is neurodivergent in a relationship and someone is neurotypical or two people are together and they have two different forms of neurodivergence, they do better if they can accept they're neurodivergence and try to work with it and the relationship and talk about what's difficult and why.

And if those discussions can be had, often the level of understanding between the partners becomes much richer, and then people are better positioned to support one another rather than misunderstanding and thinking their partner is just being difficult or being lazy, or they're kind of nuts, which is the go to places when people don't understand what's really going on.

(12:54) Executive function and conflict

Cate: Well, I love that you highlighted that "why." Because the question I get all the time is "How do I explain what is going on with my ADHD without making it an excuse?" And I think that because as ADHDers, I really do believe like we have a responsibility to try and do our best to make life as good as we possibly can for the people in our life. And that means sometimes we have to take responsibility.

But also the fact of the matter is that sometimes taking responsibility means, "Hey, we need a little bit of extra support." And so, this idea of talking through the "why", "Why is it hard for me?" That then sort of leads to actually what I wanted to talk about next, which I love, which is executive functioning and how executive functioning shows up in ADHD and how that can affect our ability to resolve conflict.

Michael: Basically, with executive functioning, you know, we think about things like flexible thinking, self-monitoring, planning and prioritizing, task initiation, organization, impulse control. I read this article by Russell Barkley a couple of weeks ago, and he was making the point that when you're assessing for ADD, the ADD assessments are helpful because they let people know that they have it.

But probably an executive functioning assessment would be even more helpful because people would really be able to break down what's truly hard for them.

Cate: I feel that in my very soul, Michael, I feel that in my soul. I've been attacked on my own podcast. Oh my gosh.

Michael: And that has implications both for, I think you're referring to like how you talk about things, you know, and also how you compensate, which I think has to be part of the discussion. And I think before we even go any further, it's important to remember that the reason that the term neurodiversity was brought about was to really emphasize strengths and to emphasize differences rather than pathology or something like that or disorders.

Cate: The deficit mindset.

Michael: Yeah. And so, like for all these same women who are struggling have these unique gifts, you know as well, and you know, there's a lot of creativity. There's a capacity to hyperfocus when someone gets into something and sometimes, you know, if people have talent and they hyperfocus, their success can be off the charts. But if people can be aware of those differences and know how to work with them, it just makes life so much more workable.

(15:22) Time perception and conflict

Cate: The other one that comes up a lot that I don't hear talked about very often is just time perception. How people with ADHD have differences in time perception, both just sort of like as we move through our normal day, but then also you bring in that hyperfocus, hyperfixation mindset.

You know, because right now I'm long distance from my husband while I'm out here in L.A. and I know that I tend to carry a lot of guilt about how often I'll forget to text him or like, "Oh my gosh, it's been four days since I called him because I've been hyperfocused on the work that I'm doing out there." And that can also really impact a relationship and especially impact the other person and how safe they're feeling in the relationship.

Michael: Well, that is so true that basically what can happen is that someone can be preoccupied with something and not even realize that hours have passed and perhaps they're supposed to be connecting with their partner and their partner can feel like, "Do I matter? What's up with that?"

(16:20) What is "turning away and turning towards"?

Cate: But that perfectly then aligns with this idea that the Gottmans developed of turning away and turning towards.

Michael: Right.

Cate: And how to initiate that discussion. So, before we talk about that, can you explain to our dear, wonderful listeners what turning away turning towards is?

Michael: Turning towards involves one person making a bid for connection and it could be a small thing like you and your husband are at a family reunion and you see a goofy and do something really funny, you know. And so, you might smile and look at him and he would smile back. You made a bid. He turned towards the bid. It's a bid made and received. And what Dr. John Gottman would say that basically every time a bid is made and received, it's like a positive deposit in the emotional bank account of the relationship.

Like small-scale bids that happened in everyday living "Hey, I got to tell you a joke. I got to tell you a story. I want a hug." And then there's medium-sized bids, you know, like, "Let's have a date night" or "It's been a while since we've gone to the shore. Let's go." And then there's even a big, big, bids like, "You know, I've always wanted to take a trip to Hawaii with you. Let's do it for our 25th anniversary."

But the same thing holds true with bids of all sizes. So, the other person can either turn towards the bid and connect and they build up the positive deposits in the bank account. They can miss bid and really people with ADHD, you have to be careful about bids.

Cate: Yeah.

Michael: You know, because if you're preoccupied with a bunch of other stuff or you're having a hard time paying attention, it's much easier to miss bids.

Cate: That's what I was going to say is that I absolutely see a pattern even in my own life. The acknowledgment of the bid, but not following through where it's like, "Hey, I really want to go to the beach this weekend. Oh my gosh, we totally should." But by the time Friday or Saturday rolls around, I've forgotten or my schedule has changed or something like that because, you know, in my brain I'm like, time is wibbly wobbly. And so, I feel how my own ADHD often impacts my ability to really authentically turn towards and accept those bids all the way.

Michael: In the Gottman Method we have a protocol called the aftermath of a regrettable incident that can be used for when partners have an argument and they need to kind of repair with each other and figure out what happened. And everyone can take some responsibility for what happened and then come up with a plan for next time. So, sometimes it's the processing of experience which becomes so important. And if that goes untalked about, then your partner's not going to understand why it happened and what happened.

And so, again, if people can talk about their ongoing issues, their perpetual issues, they can learn from that and figure out how to work together over time to meet both parts of partner's needs.

(19:13) The four horsemen of divorce

Cate: So, we know that turning towards is really important. Embracing those bids is really important. We know that approaching conflict with empathy and kindness and a positive mindset is really important. So, once we have all that, what stops people from successfully resolving conflict?

Michael: There can be a number of things. If they're not tending to their friendship together well enough, that stops people. Really with the friendship, there's three levels. One is love maps, which means knowing your partner. And when you're in a relationship with someone who is neurodivergent and when you're neurodivergent and in a relationship, you have to know your partner that much more.

And we also have to appreciate our partners regularly and express appreciation, not just kind of think. We've got to say it. We also have to connect with our partners, which is the turning towards piece. And when people do all three of those things, well, then they have a good, strong friendship. And so there's a lot of positive, positive in the emotional bank account of the relationship and you can withdraw from there when things get off track.

But then conflict also is, you know, how we manage conflict, what happens when things break down, which people, you know, use, which I would call the "Four horsemen of the apocalypse," which are the biggest predictors of divorce.

Cate: Talk to me about these four horsemen.

(20:32) The first horseman: Criticism

Michael: OK, I will do. So, the first one is criticism. That's like when you're trying to make a complaint to your partner, but you maybe have held on to it too long and you start using these "you" statements that come off as blaming. Maybe you've tried to justify your concern to work your way up to talking about it. So, that would be like "You never take out the trash. You don't care about me. I'm the only one who cares about this house. I'm the only one who takes out the trash ever. Ever in the history of since I've known you have you ever taken out the trash," you know, that kind of stuff.

Cate: Oh, man. But then instantly, I see where the ADHD, emotional dysregulation, that time perception, that even like the hyperbole that we can sometimes engage in, where something feels like you never take out the trash and it's like, "No, you forget a lot," but you know, like you have done it before, but then the partner hears, "Well, that's factually inaccurate because of course, I have taken out the trash before. I just sometimes forget."

Michael: Living with ADD and try to cover one's bases is really stressful. And so, when people are in a stressful place, they often have like a negative perspective that can come out in terms of when they try to communicate with others. And I think that's when they're more at risk of coming off as critical. There's an antidote for each of these four horsemen and the antidote, the thing to do instead, that really works. I mean, they're simple concepts but they really help.

The first antidote is to use soft start-up, you know, complain without blame. And then so you use a template that's basically "I feel about what and I need." So, "I get so frustrated when I come home. And I worked before I left to make sure everything was clean. And then when you forget to take out the trash, it changes everything. The place just looks a lot worse. And I need things to be clean and organized and tidy to be able to think and function. And so I really need you to remember to take out the trash. That's really important to me."

So, did you hear how that sounds different from the "you" statements? Instead, you're using "I" statements to talk about your feelings and needs. You can use the "you" statement to talk about what happened because it's like an event, but then you have to shift to "I" statements and just own your feelings, own your needs, and then you're not calling your partner out in the same way. And usually you can be much better heard.

Cate: Well, and it's also an opportunity to engage in empathy. Your partner might not know "I really do need a clean, quiet space to work, otherwise it's really difficult for me." And so hearing that as opposed to "You never take out the trash" that might suddenly click something of, "Oh, this isn't necessarily about the action of taking out the garbage. This is about creating a space where we can live and work together as our best selves."

Michael: Right.

(23:26) The second horseman: Defensiveness

Cate: OK. What is the second horseman of the relationship apocalypse, Michael?

Michael: The second one is defensiveness. So, suppose you had said something to me that came off as critical. Then what often happens is people get defensive and that can either be kind of a whiny sort of "You're always picking on me. You're never happy. You don't care about me."

Another form of defensiveness is like a counterattack. And that can be like "I have taken out the trash every single day since I met you and every single day since we moved in together. And you know that. I am not the problem. You are the one who doesn't care about this house." You know the danger, as you can imagine, if you get into that and it just goes back and forth and back and forth and back and forth.

Cate: Forever.

Michael: Yeah. And it's a horrible track to be on. The antidote to that is to be able to accept some responsibility for something. So, if you complain to me about something, and even if you're coming off as a little bit critical, if I say anything that accepts a little responsibility, like if I say, "You know, I haven't been that great about it," you know, I'm not saying "You're right. I've never taken out the trash in my life," or something like that.

"I don't know where the trash cans are outside the house." I don't have to say that. But if I could just say, "You know, I could be better at that." Often what happens is the other person will kind of calm down.

(24:50) The third horseman: Contempt

Cate: I think that makes a ton of sense. So, then I guess my next question is, what is the third horseman of the relationship apocalypse?

Michael: Well, the third one is contempt and contempt is kind of the funnest one to describe. It's like ramped-up criticism where the person is really feeling negatively about their partner. Without knowing it, they're scanning for the negative to the extent that they're just trying to find everything that their partner is doing wrong. They've gotten entirely away of talking about their feelings and their needs.

And basically people act superior to their partner when they're contemptuous, they are disgusted with their partner. The eye roll is like the biggest nonverbal sign of contempt or the, you know, the sneer. And the problem with contempt is this like pouring acid on love. Every time you do it, you kill a little more love. And if there's too much contempt over time, sometimes people reach a point where there's no love left. And that's like the biggest predictor of divorce.

It looks different in different cultures, like in the South, if you hear someone say, "Bless his heart" or "Bless her heart," you can count on the fact that they just said something contemptuous. They say like "He is just as dumb as a box of rocks," you know, then "Bless his heart."

In Ireland, I taught this stuff there with my colleague Sinead, and I remember we asked the group there "What does contempt look like?" And they would say something like, "It's just amazing that you have that Ph.D., Michael, particularly given that house that you grew up in, that family that you come from." It's like a backhanded slam.

You know, you have to be aware of how contempt works in the cultures that have influenced you to be able to work with it. There's also, like I would call a good boy or good girl contempt, where they say something like, "I grew up in a house where we just believed in taking out the trash. We thought when we did so we prevent rodents from coming in, we live better, we keep our things at our home the way we want to keep it. That's just the kind of people we were and the values that we have."

You know, and so, but the whole inference is that you weren't raised that way. Yeah. And so, those are all different forms of contempt, but that's one you've got to be the most careful about.

Cate: All right. So, what do we do about it, then? What is the antidote?

Michael: Well, the antidote — this is also why appreciation is so important. So, you know, if you work with the friendship and you're appreciating your partner regularly, try to keep the positive things your partners doing in mind, that really helps. What happens, too, though, is that, again, as I said before, when people are using contempt, they've gone entirely away from talking about their feelings and their needs and they're just trying to nail their partner.

So, they have to get back to diligently talking about their feelings and their needs and not talking about their partner, just what's happening? What do they feel about it? What have they need instead? Really extra diligence around soft of start-up.

(27:48) The fourth horseman: Stonewalling

Cate: I guess, then. OK, so what's the next one? What's the fourth horseman of the apocalypse?

Michael: The final one is stonewalling. And, you know, I think with ADHD where that would happen or really any of the three differences I focus on mostly at this point — dyslexia, being on the spectrum, or ADHD — sometimes what happens is that when people are not responding to a conversation, they're not engaging, their arms may be cross, you know, their body language is closed. It's just making their partner nuts because it feels to them like what they're saying is not important to the other partner who is stonewalling.

But the real thing that's going on is that usually people are overwhelmed, you know, and even they're physiologically flooded. Their heart rates might be even up above 100 or if they're moving in that direction and they have those other symptoms that occur when people are experiencing fight or flight. And that's because they don't quite know how to respond to the conversation. And what they need to do is to tell their partner they're overwhelmed, to take a break, relax, and then come back and try again.

Cate: Is that the antidote, then? Is just taking a break, taking a step away, emotionally regulating?

Michael: Yes. It's, the antidote it's called soothing and includes all the things that you just described. And it can be whatever works for you. If watching a favorite sitcom really do the trick, that's OK. If it's taking a walk or doing some yoga, they're are all good.

(29:11) Where you can find Michael

Cate: Wise, smart, amazing words from Michael McNulty, who is the founder of the Chicago Relationship Center and is also an advanced writer for the Gottman Institute. Michael, tell the people where they can find you, where they can learn more, how to get a hold of you. Give us the dirty details.

Michael: OK. So, they can look at my website which is ChicagoRelationshipCenter.com. They can also go to the events calendar and Gottman.com where what I'm doing is listed and then what all my colleagues are doing is listed as well. And besides doing weekly couples therapy, I teach the Gottman Method to couples through the art and science of love in Chicago and in Oakland with my partner Sinead Smith, my partner in that endeavor, not my partner in life.

Cate: I was like, "Oh that's so romantic." But OK, that makes sense, right?

Michael: So, that's one way. And then I also teach all levels of Gottman training, sometimes at the University of Chicago and sometimes at other places. The other thing that I do with the Gottman Institute is 3 or 4 times a year they sponsor lunchtime webinars where we talk about all these concepts and how to adapt the Gottman Method for people who are neurodiverse. And so, some are for couples, some are for therapists, and that's another place to look for me too.

Cate: Well, I will be signing up for that. Michael, thank you so much for being here. This was such an educational and important conversation. I really appreciate your time.

Michael: Well, I would just say, Cate, that you inspire me, that this was just such a great conversation and so easy and so interesting and it's all driven by you. So, thank you.

Cate: Aww! Thanks so much. That's nice. I will turn towards your kind and give it right back to you because you're great too.

Thank you for listening. Anything mentioned in the episode will be linked in the show notes with more resources. Have a question, comment, burning story you'd like to share? Email me at sorryimissedthis@understood.org. This show is brought to you by Understood.org. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences like ADHD and dyslexia. Learn more at Understood.org.

"Sorry, I Missed This" is produced and edited by Jessamine Molli and Margie DeSantis. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. Ilana Millner is our supervising producer. Briana Berry is our production director. Neil Drumming is our editorial director.

For Understood.org, our executive directors are Laura Key, Scott Cocchiere, and Seth Melnick. I'm your host, Cate Osborn. Thank you so much for listening. Remember to be kind to yourself, remember to be kind to others, and I'll see you again soon.

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