Consensual non-monogamy and ADHD relationships

Monogamous romantic relationships have been seen as the norm for a long time. They’re the kind most commonly represented in the media, often as the only “right” kind of relationship. However, open relationships, polyamory, and other consensual non-monogamous relationships are more common than you might think. People with ADHD often find ways of living life outside of the typical standard. This could include being non-monogamous!

Martha Kauppi is a marriage and family therapist and sex therapist. She is the author of the book Polyamory: A Clinical Toolkit for Therapists (And Their Clients). Listen to this conversation on jealousy, reaching agreements with your partner, and what consensual non-monogamy really is.

We love hearing from our listeners. Email us at sorryimissedthis@understood.org.

Related resources

• Polyamory: A Clinical Toolkit for Therapists (And Their Clients) by Martha Kauppi

• 8 Steps To Opening Up: Starting The Conversation About Non-Monogamy, a Free eBook by Martha Kauppi

• Martha Kauppi’s website, www.instituteforrelationalintimacy.com

Timestamps

(00:55) Why learn about consensual non-monogamy?

(04:04) What is consensual non-monogamy?

(05:36) What is the biggest misconception about non-monogamy?

(08:40) Building a relationship that works for you, not just what you see in the media

(11:46) Viewing non-monogamy as an option in life

(15:42) Moving toward consensual non-monogamy in a relational way

(21:03) How would you start a conversation about opening your currently monogamous relationship?

(24:20) Tips for working through jealousy 

(25:35) What is compersion?

(30:13) It’s OK if non-monogamy isn’t for you! 

(32:10) Where can you find Martha? 

Episode transcript

Cate: Hi everybody, and welcome back to "Sorry, I Missed This," the show where we talk about all things ADHD and how it relates to intimacy, relationships, communication and more. Y'all, today on the podcast we're going to be talking about non-monogamy and I am so excited to bring you this conversation. This is a topic that is near and dear to my heart and to talk to you about it, I have one of literally the world's foremost experts on non-monogamy. We've got Martha Kauppi on the podcast.

Martha is a marriage and family therapist. She's an educator. She's an author. She's a speaker. She's a certified sex therapist, just like me. She's the author of "Polyamory: A Clinical Toolkit," and she is genuinely one of my heroes. So, I'm so excited to welcome her to the show.

(00:55) Why learn about consensual non-monogamy?

Today's podcast episode is going to be a little bit different than what you're used to. Yes, we are going to talk about ADHD. Yes, we are going to talk about neurodivergency. But one of the things that I really wanted to do when I set out to make this podcast is to bring light to issues that people who are neurodivergent, who do have ADHD deal with that we don't often get to talk about. And consensual non-monogamy is one of those topics. Many, many neurodivergent people probably neurodivergent people that you know, are in open and ethically non-monogamous relationships.

Now, I know sometimes for some people, my mom included, that when we hear phrases like non-monogamy or consensual non-monogamy or polyamory, there can be an initial like "How strange, how weird, how salacious." But one of the reasons why I really wanted to bring this episode to “Sorry, I Missed This" is because I am one of those people who is in a non-monogamous relationship.

I have been with my husband Chris for ten years and I love him and I adore him and I would do anything for him. And then I met Eric, and Eric is now my long-term partner of five years. And I never thought this was going to be my life. I never thought I was going to be a person who salaciously and pearl clutchingly had two partners. It just kind of organically happened and it developed over time and we made a lot of mistakes along the way and we screwed up a lot and it took a lot of really hard conversation and discussing and all of those type of things to end up where we are.

And so, one of the reasons why I wanted to talk about this is to, one, just de-stigmatize it a little bit. Being in an open relationship, being in an ethically non-monogamous relationship is far, far more common than you might think. And I think being able to talk about it as a valid and authentic relationship structure next to monogamy and saying, "Hey, if you are in a non-monogamous relationship, you might experience these issues that are outside of the monogamous scope. It doesn't make them any less valid. It doesn't make them any less real. It just means that we have to have different conversations." And since "Sorry, I Missed This” is about all things ADHD, intimacy, and communication, I think it's important to bring conversations about non-monogamy to the table because again, is just as valid.

It might not be for you and that is totally OK as well. I promise I'm not trying to convert anybody or bring you over to my team, but if you're a person who is a little bit unsure if you're a little bit shocked about the content of this episode, I ask you to listen to it. Listen to it with an open mind. Listen to the stories that Martha shares about her life and her experiences as a therapist and as an educator, because I think you might learn a little bit of something about what non-monogamy is and isn't. So, with that being said, dear listener, thank you so much for being here. I am so excited for this episode, and so I'm pleased to welcome you to my conversation with Martha Kauppi. Hi, Martha. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Martha: Hi. I'm really happy to be here.

(04:04) What is consensual non-monogamy?

Cate: Can you just start by defining ethical non-monogamy, polyamory, how those different terms and even ones that you prefer to use or not use. What are they what are we talking about here today?

Martha: I would usually use the term consensual non-monogamy. A lot of people will choose ethical non-monogamy. There are reasons to choose one or another that, whatever, you can google it, but I usually just go with CNM, polyamory being a subset of CNM. So, a consensual non-monogamy is some kind of a relationship agreement that involves partners having other intimate partnerships outside of just two people and always consensual meaning with the agreement of everybody concerned. So, it's not the same as infidelity. There's no secrecy about this. It's an agreement for open. And so, that's kind of an umbrella term, I would say.

And then other forms, some forms of non-monogamy fit under there, including polyamory. The definition of poly is more, multiple, and emory is love, so it's right there in the name. And then that's quite different from just open consensually open, which could be anything from monogamish, friends with benefits, friends when I travel internationally. It could include polyamory for sure.

(05:36) What is the biggest misconception about non-monogamy?

Cate: What are some common misconceptions that you run into in the work that you do?

Martha: I think the biggest one is that it really doesn't work, which is absolutely abundantly not true. And it's a perspective that comes, I think, from the fact that it's a marginalized population. So, people don't talk about it openly, always in case they might lose a friend or their parents not going to feel comfortable, they're not going to be able to come home for the holidays or they're not going to be able to be in an honest conversation about what their life looks like with the people that are close to them. So, not everybody who's in an open relationship is out about it. And therefore, you know, you probably know lots of people who are in open relationships or at least someone and you just don't know it.

And if you've never seen it existing in nature and working well, it's a stretch to believe that it exists in nature and works well. But it does. And that was a big reason why when I was in graduate school to become a therapist, I decided to do a research study about it because I thought, "Geez, I've seen this work well. My brother is in an open relationship and had been for years, like 18 years, 22 years." And I was like, "The myth that this doesn't work is obviously not true. Maybe I'll do a research study" and then kind of one thing led to another.

Cate: That's so cool. I love that you did actual research on it. I wonder if you can talk a little bit about just consensual non-monogamy being portrayed as this like salacious or weird or, you know, strange thing when in reality, like you said earlier, probably, you know, somebody who is in a consensually non-monogamous relationship.

Martha: For sure. I mean, my parents were my parents were in a monogamish relationship where they had an agreement that my stepfather who traveled internationally could hook up when he was out of the country. And I have no idea if he ever did or didn't. But my brother and I both know about that agreement. So, we grew up in a household where we were clearly taught through example that you could figure out relationship agreements that fit the individual rather than following a particularly kind of societally prescribed or scripted way of building a relationship.

I think anything that we've never experienced seems scary, and if we haven't seen it, it seems scary. And then the media depictions, of course, are looking to engage you. And if there's no plot, there's not much reason to watch it. I mean, watching a well-functioning open relationship over the course of time is probably a lot like watching paint dry. I just like watching a well-functioning, monogamous relationship over time, like whatever. So, if you think about it, the media depictions of monogamy also are a little salacious. So, we have to think about media. And then also, if we don't understand it, we don't understand it. And then it looks scary.

(08:40) Building a relationship that works for you, not just what you see in the media

Cate: I love that you talked about this idea of building the shape of a relationship together. Relationships don't have to necessarily look exactly like what we see in media, because I see this a lot in the work that I do with women with ADHD who are living with neurodivergency, is that the way that we balance labor, the way that we handle, you know, supporting our partners, the support that we receive from our partners. That can often look different than the standard sort of traditional relationship. And so, as a person who found my way to consensual non-monogamy, I found that it works so much better for me. It profoundly affects my quality of life. It affects the way that I'm able to move through the day. It makes me a better person and a stronger partner.

And so, it’s, I don't know, it’s, I was really nervous about this episode because, one, I was like, OK, this is me coming out on the podcast as consensually non-monogamous. But I also feel like this is probably where somebody is going to go “Oh that's why she keeps saying partner and husband, there are two different people." Like, yes, dear listener, they've been two different people the whole time. But I'm curious, Martha, like when we talk about sort of shaping relationships in a way that works for us, can you talk about how just sort of like making it up as you go can tie into consensual non-monogamy?

Martha: So, this is, I think, a reason why there are a lot of queer people in open relationships as well. And I think there are a lot of neurodivergent people in open relationships. I think when we have tried to figure out a way to create a relationship that works without being able to use a script, then we have to get creative. And I think that's one of the gifts that we can offer to cis, heterosexual, monogamous people. If you're operating on gender roles scripts or anything, any kind of scripted idea what monogamy is supposed to look like, what gender combination is supposed to be in a relationship, any kind of script about who should have a relationship or what the relationship should look like or what any person's role in the relationship should be, those are rules that are pretty arbitrarily dealt out.

And when that's the case, it's just sort of a matter of luck if that's going to be a good fit for you or not. And it's really a gift if you already know that you're not in a box. So, you know, I remember I'm in a same-sex relationship duration 30 years. And I remember looking at my partner very early on, standing in the kitchen and being like, "Well, shit, how are we going to figure out who does what? You know, I guess we're going to have to actually have a conversation about what we like and what we want and what we're good at and you know, what's enjoyable." And why in the world doesn't everybody do that as a way of shaping the day-to-day business of their lives? So, I think that's a real gift.

(11:46) Viewing non-monogamy as an option in life

Cate: I was just sitting here thinking I was like, "If everybody had those conversations, then I would not have a job." I remember being a kid and being so confused about the idea of getting married because I was like, "I have a lot of friends and I like all of my friends in different ways and we do different things together. How do you pick like one person to be that one person for you for the rest of your life? Like there's so many other people that you're going to meet." And then, you know, eventually, like, I sort of found my way to non-monogamy and I was like, "OK, this makes sense in my brain a lot more."

But it was just, it's so funny, I feel like that like, I know for a fact that there are so many people who are out there going like, "I'm not feeling all the way fulfilled. I'm not feeling like this is like a really good fit for me." But because non-monogamy can be so salacious, it can be so like, "I'm clutching my pearls,” it’s, I feel like we don't talk about it enough as just a normal option of a relationship structure that exists next to and beside monogamy. And, you know, we're not at war.

We're not trying to bring anybody over to the team. It's just, "Hey, this is another option and it might work better for you. It might result in a more fulfilling life for you. And that's OK." Do you run into that a lot? Of people just clutching pearls and gasping?

Martha: I think culturally we've pretty well embraced the idea that we could have multiple friends who kind of meet multiple desires that we might have. But then if you have a sexual incompatibility, it starts to get a little iffy or whether you feel like you could outsource that aspect of your relationship to a different friend. So, there's a way in which this isn't really scarier than having a movie friend and a workout friend.

Cate: Yeah.

Martha: It doesn't have to be a lot more complicated than that. Of course, the place where I got interested in polyamory is because love comes into it for a lot of people, sometimes quite unintentionally. And then feelings come up. Once feelings come up, other feelings come up. And then before you know it, everybody involved has feelings of all kinds. And there's a lot of mythology built up around feelings.Generally, culturally, I don't think we handle them very well. And jealousy is one of the ones we handle least well. And I think that's because we don't really do a good job of figuring out what jealousy is about and how to handle it.

So, to me, jealousy is it's an emotion. It's pretty closely related to anxiety. It's like a kind of relational anxiety. And our emotions, big or little, I think, are there to teach us something about what's important to us. And so, if we look at our emotions, instead of being drivers of action, but instead being informers of what's important, then we can use them to learn more about ourselves and then we can let that move our behavior towards curiosity and checking assumptions, figuring out, "Oh gosh, this particular brand of jealousy that I'm experiencing maybe is self-comparison." I'm imagining that my partner is comparing me to their other partner and I'm of course going to come up short and then they're going to break up with me or, you know, that's a information in kind of way of handling emotions.

Like, this is what this emotion is telling me. This is an interesting construct that has something to do with self-esteem. And some of this I could check out with my partner, some of this I could discuss with my therapist. But it's not like because I experience the emotion of jealousy, it’s a sign that this relationship is bad or that you've done me wrong. But culturally, I think we think that this is the one emotion that we think if you feel that, somebody did you wrong.

(15:42) Moving toward consensual non-monogamy in a relational way

Cate: So, when we talk about jealousy, when we talk about these sort of big feelings that come up to me, it's another great parallel between the lived experience of women with ADHD, where there's a lot of radical self-examination, radical self-awareness, radical self-acceptance that goes into being able to access your needs, being able to access your wants and your desires. Can you talk about the role that self-awareness, radical self-acceptance and even just like things like boundaries can be in play if a person is deciding to move into a non-monogamous relationship structure?

Martha: OK that is a big question. I'm going to talk about that from the direction of how would you move towards an open relationship in a relational way? So, the way I think about relationality is we can kind of be individualistic, which is important. What do I want? What do I prefer? What's important to me? How important is it? But then I can tell my partner about it and have a conversation around it in a very individualistic way or in a very relational way.

I could be like, "Honey, I had sex with the next-door neighbor who happens to be her best friend. And yeah, we've been having sex for like eight months. And I'm just telling you about this right now. And also, I'd like us to open our relationship and I'd like us to open our relationship with this person." That would be maybe not the most likely to succeed approach, right?

Cate: Yeah.

Martha: Better would be "My darling. I've been thinking. I read this book about consensual non-monogamy and I'm really curious about it. I wonder if you've just be able to have a conversation with me sort of about consensual non-monogamy. What comes up for you? What do you think about it? What do I think about it? And we could just open the topic and begin exploring it."

Now, obviously, in example one and example two, a big difference is "Was it acted on already or not?" And it takes a certain amount of self-control to want something and not go get it right then. And that's also part of relationality. So, if I am in a relationship where I really honor my partner, I do not want to blindside my partner with something like a broken monogamy agreement eight months down the road with their best friend.

So, it's good to think of these things ahead and talk about them, but people rarely do, which keeps me in work. And it's really because people are worried about the conflict because it's not such an easy conversation to say, "Honey, I had developed a crush on my co-worker and honestly, I'd like to talk with you about it because I'd like to act on it." Like when I say that to somebody in a monogamous relationship, it does make them clutch their balls. Like now we're having hot flashes and it's scary and that's understandable, but it's not better to act on it without a discussion.

Cate: Yeah.

Martha: And then have a blindside with a broken agreement piled on top. And so, there's a certain level of transparency that's needed. And so, what better time to practice the skills that you're going to need to actually do transparency than when you start saying what you're curious about and interested in in the way of a relationship structure.

So, if you think of it as a stepping stone towards skill building, you and your partner are both going to need to build these skills of dealing with differences, dealing with hard conversations, sticking with hard conversations, getting curious about each other's perspectives, not trying to nebulate each other into doing what you want. Those kinds of relational skills are part of the project and you're going to have to develop them sooner or later. And so, why not sooner before the damage is done?

Cate: Was also really interesting to me is there's a modicum of conversation around like impulse control and emotional regulation and how we are responding to those signals that, you know, again, especially for women with ADHD, you might be experiencing in a way that is a little bit more of a struggle, right? Like even for me as a person who has two long-term partners, it's always a conversation, right? If I want to like go on a date or something, like I have the guardrails built into my relationship to make sure that I'm not acting impulsively, to make sure that I'm checking in with myself and checking in with my partners and having open and honest conversations to allow that emotional regulation to happen before I make a decision.

Being able to talk through and process through things like impulsivity and emotional regulation, I think also strengthen the relationship because then, you know, like you were talking about, there's that trust there and there's that knowledge that if I come to you with a big hard thing, you know, you're not going to immediately freak out. It's like, no, let's work through this together.

(21:03) How would you start a conversation about opening your currently monogamous relationship?

My question, Martha, is if I am a person who is listening to this podcast and something inside has lit up and I'm thinking, how would you start that conversation if somebody has been in a primarily monogamous relationship?

Martha: Gee. Well, that's a beautiful opening. I'm going to give you a link that you can share with your listeners to a free e-book that I have, but it's really about the conversation and the thinking that you would do at the very beginning, and it covers material that's not in my book. The first thing is really to take a minute and figure out what you want to experience, not just ultimately in your open relationship they are hoping for at some point, but what do you want to experience in your conversations with your partner? So, how do you want the conversation process about opening up to look and feel for you and for your partner that would contribute to what you want to build together?

Cate: Can you talk a little bit about the struggles or the sort of trip ups that might happen as a person transitions into a non-monogamous model of a relationship?

Martha: Sure. I mean, feelings of jealousy and things related to jealousy are a big one. There's a bit of a myth that people who are in successful open relationships don't experience those emotions. Not true. So, it's more like people who are in successful long term open relationships have ways of dealing with those emotions. And then I also think broken agreements are an issue. And I mean, this is a huge topic. We could talk about broken agreements for many hours. It's a really sophisticated skill to make a good agreement. And we think sometimes at the beginning of an open relationship that we have to hammer out all of the agreements that we're going to have in this relationship before we're in the relationship. Instead, just to figure out one small experiment that feels 80% doable for all concerned.

So, maybe that would be a coffee date with a person that you have some kind of interest with, but no physical contact. You can try that. See what it feels like to not get what you want, the moment that you want to, and your partner can experiment with what it feels like to be home alone knowing you're on a coffee date with somebody else. And all of you can have a conversation about how it went and figure out if you want to repeat the experiment, expand the experiment, tweak the experiment or how you could support each other better around this kind of experiment. Learn what you can from that one small step and then take another small step.

So, what you're doing is essentially organically crafting a relationship that's a good fit for you rather than forming some sort of an opinion about what the relationship should look like according to some invisible map and then trying to squish everybody involved into the mold and then creating a lot of distress because we don't like to be hammered into a mold.

(24:20) Tips for working through jealousy

Cate: Jealousy has come up so often in this conversation. And so, what are the tools that you use and you teach to help people move through jealousy, work through jealousy, talk through jealousy.

Martha: The first one is just that frame change to begin to regard it as an emotion and then to ask yourself if you're feeling jealousy, what can you learn from the jealousy? And there's a concept shift there that I think is subtle and really important between kind of a monogamy mindset where if my partner develops interest in somebody else, eventually she's going to have to make a choice between me and that other person. That's a very monogamous idea, versus an open relationship system kind of mindset where if my partner develops an interest in somebody else, my partner develops an interest in somebody else and it means absolutely nothing about my connection with my partner.

So, beginning to kind of practice separating the feelings from the concept and misconception, the meanings that we make and checking things out along the way would be probably the simplest way I could describe what can sometimes be like a years-long therapeutic process.

(25:35) What is compersion?

Cate: Can you talk a little bit too, about compersion?

Martha: Sure.

Cate: It's like my favorite thing. I love talking about it.

Martha: It is a really cool concept and basically it refers to simplistically the opposite of jealousy. So, the idea that we could experience enjoyment from our partner's enjoyment. Think of this in a non-sexual context. I like to use social media as an example. So, can you look at pictures of somebody’s vacation and just be happy for them that they're having vacation regardless of what you're experiencing yourself? And then can you maybe even stretch to borrowing some of that happiness? Like “Yay, you! that looks amazing." And then let yourself kind of have a little bit of an amazing feeling because of how amazing that looks. It's a thing that you have to build muscle for. It takes a little practice and we don't have a lot of practice culturally in doing this and really thinking well of other people. We're much more competitive than that.

We want to have that positive experience ourselves, and we're much more likely to tell ourselves a bad story about ourselves or about the other person or about our destiny and go down a rabbit hole of mood. So, instead of feeling jealous that my partner is out with somebody else, what if I thought, “Gee, I'm happy for my partner that they're out with somebody else. I'm happy that they're happy. I want my partner to feel happy, engaged, sexually satisfied, loved, cherished by as many people as possible. Whatever my partner wants. That's what I want for my partner." And then to begin to let myself have a little bit of that just through that empathetic connection.

Cate: I remember very specifically the day I heard about compersion for the first time, and I was like, "Oh I love this. I love this with my whole soul" because I'm like, I love my partners and I just want to see my partners be happy. And I'm like, I know my partner's awesome and it makes me really happy when other people recognize that my partners are also awesome too. And so I'm like, "Hell yeah, go, go, be loved by other people because you are deserving of it and you're amazing and awesome."

Martha: I really love that perspective because that's going to help you get through some hard moments that you have that framework.

Cate: Yeah, well, and it's interesting that you talked about that framework and sort of building the picture and trying to fit it into the frame, because I will fully admit in front of God and everybody that one of the biggest fights my husband and I ever had when we first started sort of integrating this process and talking about it was he was like, "Well, hey, what if my partner came and lived with us?" And I laughed. I like laughed in his face and it was like, I didn't mean to. I still feel really bad about my reaction, but it was just that moment of like, “Oh my God, that's so silly and ridiculous. Like, why would you, why would you even think that?"

And now five years later, I'm like, "OK, so when we buy this cool farm and everybody has like their cool, you know," and I'm like actively planning our family's life together. And it was because in my head I was like, "OK, well, partners always live somewhere else and they fit into this box and they do this thing." And as our relationship grew and changed, I was able to sort of really look internally and go, “Oh I need to do some work here. I need to change my view on this and listen and hear, you know, what he's trying to say about his needs." But yeah, I absolutely made those mistakes when I was first starting out.

Martha: What I love about that story is it's a great illustration of how if you take small steps and live your way into an authentic future for you, you don't have to work so hard. It's not like you had to work super hard to figure it out and change this perspective of yours. The way I see it is if you just live your way into it instead of predicting the future, the present moment being OK will teach you that it's OK and then your limbic system settles down a little bit and you're like, "Oh this is OK." And the more OK it feels and the more collaborative it feels, the closer you can let it come to you. And then eventually down the road you might end up wanting something so different from what you could imagine ever wanting at the beginning. Well done. That's beautiful.

Cate: Thank you. Also, my husband listens to his podcast, so I know he's going to laugh when he hears that story, but it's fine. Hi, Chris. I love you.

(30:13) It’s OK if non-monogamy isn’t for you!

I'm not going to lie. I know that this is going to be probably a bit of a polarizing topic for some people, and that's totally OK. That's totally valid. But what do you say to those folks who are hearing this and maybe feeling, you know, a little shocked, a little upset, a little uncomfy with with this notion?

Martha: Well, I'm glad that you're able to figure out what you want and what you don't want. That's great. Go you.

Cate: Yeah.

Martha: I mean, this is not a conversion topic. This is really debunking some myths about a marginalized status. And if you're clear that this doesn't sound right for you, great. No problem. And still, maybe listen carefully, because you might have a best friend who comes out to you at some point and really could use some support. And it would be great if you had something to share with them other than, "You know what? Your problem is that you're in an open relationship. If you were just monogamous, you wouldn't have this problem" because that's not actually accurate.

There's probably something about relationality and handling differences and difficult conversations between partners that's actually going on. And that happens just as much in a monogamous relationship as it does an open relationship. But in terms of feeling pressured to open up or feeling like it would be super scary or hard, that's fine. Your emotions are your teacher and you will make a good decision in your life about your life. As a therapist, that's what I want for you. For you to make a good decision for yourself about anything. And there's no part of me that thinks that an open relationship is for everybody. And nor do I think a monogamous relationship is for everybody. And that's really just because I've seen it. I've seen it work. And so, it's clearly, there's no rulebook that says the only way it can work is monogamy.

(32:10) Where can you find Martha?

Cate: Martha Kauppi I could not have said that any better myself. That was lovely. Martha you are an author. You are a therapist. You are an educator. Dear listener, we will be linking Martha's resources in the show notes. So, if you want to check out that conversation guide, if you want to check out Martha's books, we will have that available so you can read it. But Martha, where can people find you if they want to see more of your work or learn from you or reach out to you?

Martha: Well, you can find my book anywhere that books are sold. The thing about this book is that it really is about relational skills. So, I actually know people have used this as a relationship guide for their monogamous relationships. Go figure. And then my website is InstituteforRelationalIntimacy.com, which is a mouthful. I have a free blog. You can read my blog and search my blog on my website. Most of my blogs are also published on Psychology Today, and gee, I have all kinds of free ebooks and this and that. So, have a browse around some of it's for the public. A lot of it is for therapists because I trained therapists to work with sex issues and non-monogamy.

Cate: Martha, thank you so much for being here. This was such an incredible conversation. Thank you for working in this community. Thank you for bringing light to these topics. I certainly appreciate you being here and I look forward to talking to you again soon.

Martha: Thanks so much. What a pleasure.

Cate: Thank you for listening. Anything mentioned in the episode will be linked in the show notes with more resources. Have a question, comment, burning story you'd like to share? Email us at sorryimissedthis@understood.org.

This show is brought to you by Understood.org. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences like ADHD and dyslexia. If you want to help us continue this work, donate at Understood.org/give.

"Sorry, I Missed This" is produced and edited by Jessamine Molli and Margie DeSantis. Video is produced by Calvin Knie. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. Ash Beecher is our supervising producer. Briana Berry is our production director. Neil Drumming is our editorial director. For Understood.org, our executive directors are Laura Key, Scott Cocchiere, and Seth Melnick. And I'm your host, Cate Osborn. Thank you so much for listening.

Which I just spilled on my shirt. Consummate podcast professional Catieosaurus, all right.