Navigating emotional intimacy with ADHD

Emotional intimacy is about sharing an emotional connection and presence with yourself and other people. But a lot of ADHD traits, and lived experiences, can get in the way. This could be due to trouble with emotional regulation, the emotional labor it takes to feel believed, masking, and more.

Michelle Frank is a clinical psychologist and the co-author of A Radical Guide for Women with ADHD. Listen to this conversation exploring how shame can be a roadblock to emotional intimacy, and how this intimacy can look different within every relationship.

We love hearing from our listeners. Email us at sorryimissedthis@understood.org.

Related resources

• Michelle’s book, A Radical Guide for Women with ADHD by Sari Solden and Michelle Frank

Timestamps

(02:46) What is emotional intimacy?

(04:14) Barriers to emotional intimacy with ADHD

(09:33) Shame and ADHD

(15:29) What steps can we take to build emotional intimacy?

(17:28) Sitting in uncomfortable feelings, and rejection sensitivity

(20:48) People pleasing versus building authentic connections

(22:36) What about when we’re in a relationship without emotional intimacy?

(28:41) Where can you find Michelle?

Episode transcript

Cate: Hey, everybody, and welcome back to "Sorry, I Missed This." It's me, your host, Cate Osborn, and today we are talking to Michelle Frank, author of "A Radical Guide for Women with ADHD." She's a clinical psychologist and she specializes in helping women with ADHD achieve today's topic, emotional intimacy.

What does it mean to be intimate with someone? What does it mean to be emotionally intimate with someone? And is emotional intimacy and physical intimacy different? The answer, of course, is yes, that emotional intimacy and physical intimacy are in fact, two different things, both things that we talk about here on "Sorry, I Missed This." But something that I see over and over and over in the work that I do is that oftentimes they're conflated. And this can cause a lot of issues in relationships especially.

We see this a lot with men and women, where men view sexual intimacy as a way of creating emotional intimacy. And women see emotional intimacy as a way of accessing sexual intimacy. And so, you can see how the two things might be sort of diametrically opposed foes. And so, one of the things that I really wanted to talk about this week with our wonderful guest, Michelle Frank, is how do we as women with ADHD develop emotional intimacy outside of physical intimacy?

A lot of us struggle to get into the right headspace, to be physically intimate. A lot of us have that sort of internal monologue where we're talking about the stresses and the stuff going on outside of the bedroom. And so, how do we as people outside of our sex life, how do we create a sense of intimacy in our lives? How do we create a sense of safety and connection, especially in consideration with the challenges that often come with living with ADHD? This is such a great episode and I'm so excited to welcome you all to my conversation with Michelle Frank. Let's get at it.

Hey, Michelle, thanks so much for being here.

Michelle: Thanks for having me.

Cate: I'm super excited to talk to you today. But before we do, I kind of want to talk a little bit about how incredibly qualified and amazing you are and all of the cool things that you do. You are a clinical psychologist. You're the author of "A Radical Guide for Women with ADHD," wrote the radical guide. Would you say, Michelle Frank, that it is, in fact radical or is it more like tubular?

Michelle: Tubular. Nice. I like it. Yeah, right. Like more tubular.

(02:46) What is emotional intimacy?

Cate: Let's start at like the core of the thing, the 101. What is emotional intimacy?

Michelle: Oh gosh, there's probably 1,000,001 definitions of it, but for me, when I'm thinking about it, for myself or my clients in general, I think emotional intimacy is an ability to be with one's own emotions and the emotions of another person and to experience a connectedness and an emotional presence. It's an ability to share and show ourselves to another person and let them in in a way that also has some boundaries.

Because like, you know, I think the irony is like if we have maybe no boundaries around connection and closeness and vulnerability, then we also end up with barriers to it. So, I don't mean it's without that, but I think it comes down to like presence and vulnerability and authenticity.

Cate: And also, just for the record, the purpose of this podcast, when we're talking about emotional intimacy, we're talking about deep friendships, we're talking about connections with others. Were not necessarily talking just about romantic relationships, right?

Michelle: Yeah. And I think that's why we kind of land on the term emotional intimacy. A lot of the content out there tries to narrow it down "How to do ADHD at work. How to do ADHD and, you know, monogamous long-term partnership." And so, I like the conversation around just like emotional intimacy because that expands the paradigm of what we mean by relationship.

(04:14) Barriers to emotional intimacy with ADHD

Cate: It is wild to me as somebody who lives with ADHD, that we would ever sort of put ADHD in its own box away from emotional intimacy. Because I know for me, I mean, I've been hyperaware of all of the ways that I struggle in relationships since I was a kid. You know, like I remember it being really difficult for me to make friends in school and like, relate to people and that kind of thing because I was like the weird little gremlin in the back. And so, it's like it's so interesting to me. And honestly, it's a big reason that I got into the work that I do is because we we did keep doing that ADHD at work, ADHD at home, but there was never this like ADHD in relationships.

Michelle: Yeah.

Cate: And lastly, this podcast now exists.

Michelle: Right.

Cate: But why do you think that is? Why do you think we were so quick to sort of put ADHD in that box?

Michelle: We just love things in boxes and we like as a society, it's just we like to reduce and reduce and simplify. And I think in general we've had a hard time holding the depth and complexity of ADHD. There's been so much minimization. I do this for a living, right? I speak, I advocate, I do all these things and I'm sick of feeling like I need to defend ADHD as a real phenomenon. Like I just want to hand...

Cate: That's a real thing.

Michelle: People a stack of fMRI studies and say, "Here. You know, like and so, I think that comes into play too.

Cate: I haven't made like decent ADHD content in months because it's still like there's a guy in the comments telling me that I'm like a shell for big pharma every time. And it just, you know, and he's like, "Well, maybe if you just try harder, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh."

Michelle: Yeah.

Cate: And it's just like, "Are you joking? Like we're here, it is the year of our lord, 20 and 24."

Michelle: Yeah.

Cate: And so, it's like I'm so sick of having to start at the very beginning any time I want to have any conversation. And it's really hard to do that in a 60-second video, end of my rant, I apologize. It just touched something in my soul.

Michelle: To pull it back to emotional intimacy. That is exactly one of the huge barriers we face is all of that emotional labor to be seen and understood. So, I can share with someone a little bit about my challenges, but if I bring up the word ADHD, I can run into any host of like misinformed opinions or judgments. And some people might be really cool about it, but it's hard to take those risks to share some of these vulnerable sides of ourselves when, like you said, you can just go on social media and have someone completely deny your lived experience.

Cate: Yeah.

Michelle: And so, then you enter into a new friendship perhaps, and maybe you want to talk about something about this part of your life. But again, to do all that emotional labor, to navigate all of those triggers, and to have the like regulation and strength within you to stay calm and just respond, it takes so much. And so, there you go, there's one barrier to intimacy for people with ADHD is I have to prove that I, my lived experience is real. That is exhausting for anybody. And certainly marginalized communities know this in many, many different ways, right?

So, if you're ADHD and you're also queer, trans, or Black person or brown person or indigen... I mean, like, you know, double it down times 1 million on this, like my lived experience. Like, I need to prove to you that what I've lived is real and it just becomes exhausting. And so, I think people, regardless of identity, just start saying "That's just a part of me I can't talk about then, is it?"

Cate: One of the most common questions that I get all the time is about disclosure. It's like, "Should I tell my partner that I have ADHD? Should I tell my boss, or should I tell whoever?"

Michelle: Yeah.

Cate: And for a really long time I was like, "Why is this a question? Like, I don't understand," like. And then I realized it's because every time you disclose there's that immediate risk of "And maybe my boss doesn't believe that ADHD actually exists, or maybe my partner was told his whole life that ADHD is just being lazy and you need to try harder," just like the emotional labor that you're doing of "God, I hope this person isn't about to be an asshole to my face about my own lived experience."

Michelle: Exactly. Exactly. And so, I think internally there's a brake system that goes on, like, how much of myself can I show and share without encountering judgment, criticism, shame, dismissal, invalidation, the well-intentioned, annoying fix of "Have you tried exercising, taking omega-3s and using a planner?" like all of these things.

Cate: I cackled. I cackled.

Michelle: You know, and so, a big piece of it is that ADHD folks tend to have more experiences of relational rupture. So, this is the teacher saying "You're not living up to your potential." This is the parent or just adult figure in your life with all of the "No, stop that. Pay more attention. Just try harder. You're not, you forgot your things again. Need to stop doing..." like all of that just constant stuff.

And then sometimes it's even stronger all the way to like leaving all the covers open and your partner getting annoyed with you. Like there's just more opportunities for having this moment of possible conflict. It's not always conflict, but sometimes. And this, it just builds up and it builds up. And that's where then we really get into that rejection sensitivity dysphoria.Aand we really get into the guardedness and the masking, right? Like masking takes a toll.

(09:33) Shame and ADHD

Cate: So, when we're talking about those like, shame narratives where we're telling ourselves that we're bad, we're not good, we're ashamed, were embarrassed, whatever. One, why do you think we do that as women with ADHD? And then two, what do we do about it, Michelle?

Michelle: Women with ADHD are like notorious internalizers. Everything goes in. And again, it's what did we encounter growing up? And it's important to have someplace, whether it's with a trusted friend or journaling or with a therapist, to really dissect and reflect on what did I learn about having differences, having challenges, having needs? Because that's going to be hugely informative of your internal self-talk and responses to moments that are frustrating. Do you let it just be frustrating, or does it become a full shame spiral when you get on the side of I'm terrible and suck at life and I can't?

Cate: What I have really started noticing is how like just razor thin that line is, like this morning was an amazing example. Last night I was in my zone and I was like writing and I was like working on stuff. And I was like, "Yeah." I was super hyperfocused on it. And then I went to bed and this morning I woke up and I was like, "Oh no. I didn't reset the living room for setting up the podcast." And so, I immediately just snap into that like "You're fuck up. Like you messed up everything. Like, why can't you ever get your...," you know, and I was like...

Michelle: Why can't you ever...

Cate: And why, why don't you ever plan ahead? And I was like, OK, except that like, we're fine. Like we're doing, we're doing the thing. Like, yeah, it's a little inconvenient, you know, But it was just immediate and I had to stop. And even after all of this time, even after all of this work, it's just that immediate, immediate slip into it. And then I have to go "No, no, no, no, no."

Michelle: Yeah.

Cate: But that's still the time of "No, no, no, no, no," like, it takes a minute.

Michelle: It does. There's a few things that can happen there. One is like, "Whose voice is this? Where does this come from?" Like, that's a big exploration deep dive we all need to do. Because we each have a different brand of that. It's like a drill sergeant or it's like angry authority figure. It takes on different forms for different people, but we've all got it, and ADHDers are notorious for kind of like almost relying on that voice to keep things in check sometimes.

Cate: Yeah.

Michelle: There's a big fear, huge fear of getting distance from or letting go or soothing, soothing the critic. And so, I think there's something there around like how do we interact with that side of ourselves, that voice? Like, what does that need from us? Just like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. We got this. I hear you. You're concerned about the set-up for the podcast. Thank you. I'm here. And we got this," you know, just like an acknowledgment of even that it's there.

But ultimately, I think the shame and emotional intimacy piece is really bi-directional and that shame doesn't exist while, like when we're here and we're sharing it together and we're in connection talking about it with compassion and humor, it doesn't really have the same power when you tell the story here, right?

Cate: Yeah.

Michelle: And so, it doesn't survive within compassionate connection. And in order to feel that like courage to share it, we need some experiences under our belt of like people are safe to share this with. And so, it's like kind of a bit of a cycle.

Cate: Yeah.

Michelle: But like when we're able to move through shame or just share it, it's not even that you have to get rid of your shame in order to be in connection. Like I don't want to give that impression of "You need to be perfectly regulated at all times in order to pass..." like, no.

Cate: No.

Michelle: We're humans with sensitive nervous systems, all of us, whether we like to acknowledge that or not. It's true for every human being. And so, we're not always going to nail it. Can we still show up and be in a relationship and share it? Is the question. Like tip someone over and then taking that micro risk.

Cate: So, if we're dealing with all of this, if we are struggling and we're being kind to ourselves and we're coaching, we're doing all this different stuff, what does that look like externally? Like the impact in our relationships with, you know, partners, friends, colleagues, that kind of thing.

Michelle: I think any kind of softening towards ourselves strengthens us in connection with others. When we develop that sort of inner strength of like, "I can be here for myself," we're more willing to take some risks, we're more willing to be a little bit open because it's kind of like, yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to risk asking that new person if they want to hang out sometimes on whatever level, romantic or friend or whatever, colleague. You know why? Because like, if I do run into judgment and criticism, I know I got me. You know, it might hurt and I know I can be there for myself and I can regroup.

And I think part of it is developing that kind of practice and I mean practice, you know, attuning to our own self, you know, both our emotional needs and our ADHD like brain base needs, like knowing that builds some trust. And when we have that trust, I think we're more able to take some risks.

And when we're able to work with our shame, we're usually able to show up more regulated. So, then if someone does say, "Hey, I want you to know something, you know, you did hurt my feelings" or, "Hey, there was this ADHD thing and you were late and it was frustrating or disappointing for me," we don't go to defensive. As we go to "Oh my goodness. Tell me more."

Cate: Yeah.

Michelle: "Let me do that differently. Like let's talk that through." But if we exist within shame, we can't be vulnerable enough to hold another person's hard parts either.

Cate: It sounds like shame almost becomes a defense mechanism that we can use. Like, "Oh my God, I'm such a crappy friend." Instead of you saying, "Yeah, sometimes I'm a crappy friend, but I can strive to do better," it becomes like that defense mechanism that actually puts us farther away from the people that we're trying to connect and, you know, lean into and grow towards.

Michelle: Absolutely. Shame will have us isolate. That's literally like the emotional energy of shame is like a hiding away. And it's even our body language when we're experiencing shame. Like, just look at a kid experiencing shame and imagine what they might do. There's a hiding around it and it's very painful for us.

Cate: I've just become hyperaware of my posture.

Michelle: Yeah.

(15:29) What steps can we take to build emotional intimacy?

Cate: So, in conversation with this idea of practice, I'm interested in what sort of like practical steps, tips or tricks you might have that can sort of take us out of that shame-focused mindset into more of a we're building emotional intimacy, we're accepting ourselves as we are, we're moving forward with the idea of connection and growth rather than that hiding away in that shame.

Michelle: So layered and I wish there were just easy tricks. And my answer is one that, like I mean, frankly, even just like drives myself crazy, you know, and probably going to piss off the listener a little bit, which is like, "You got to be with the feelings," you know?

Cate: Oh man, Michelle. Oh man!

Michelle: Yeah, I know.

Cate: Boo!

Michelle: I know, isn't it just too bad? I know. It's just too bad sometimes, says the therapist in my own personal life, like, "Oh I got to feel that, huh?" Yeah, it's hard. So, part of it is just that it's like getting space for what we are experiencing, so that we don't double down on this meta-emotion of shaming the shame.

Cate: Yeah.

Michelle: Like it's bad that I feel shame. Oh man, now you're really in a spiral. When I think about your question, I think, what, like kind of coming out of the shadows a little bit and I think that involves taking some micro risks. It involves putting yourself out there so that you can have new experiences to add to your repertoire, to your library of things that you experience relationally and emotionally, and hopefully add ones that are helpful.

So, when we kind of hide away, we diminish our opportunities to actually experience something new. And I'm not saying that we should just stop masking all the time. Masking keeps us safe in some situations, right?

Cate: Yeah, absolutely.

Michelle: And there are ways in which I think we all know, like "Maybe I could have been a little more authentic in that interaction or with that person." Like maybe think about the people in your life you would like to get a little closer to what are the signs that they offer that they might be a good person to try that with.

(17:28) Sitting in uncomfortable feelings, and rejection sensitivity

Cate: After you so rudely told us that we have to feel our feelings? How absolutely dear.

Michelle: Yeah, I know. It's awful.

Cate: The sort of flag that immediately went up in my head is sitting in uncomfortable feelings for a lot of women with ADHD those uncomfortable feelings are based in that rejection sensitivity or that, you know, fear of being vulnerable.

Michelle: Yeah.

Cate: So, what is that look like parsing through rejection sensitivity in order to be able to reach out and say, hey, guess what, I might get rejected or there might be like an element of rejection there. Or probably honestly, if we're being honest, there won't be. But, spoiler surprise, but how do we sit in that and not get lost in the sauce?

Michelle: I think it's everything we're talking about. We know that ADHD brains do emotions differently in a lot of ways.

Cate: Can you just like...brief, brief overview of that?

Michelle: Yeah. So, ADHD brains are just more sensitive emotionally. So like if you look back on the history of your life, if you're someone with ADHD, you'll probably say, "Yep, been sensitive."

Cate: Yup.

Michelle: So, we're a little more prone to amygdala overload, like just like the real emotional part of the brain getting overwhelmed or hyperaroused. We tend to struggle to filter out stimuli in general. Shocker, I know, like news alert, right? We struggle to filter out stimuli and that involves emotional stimuli. So, we take in a lot, right? It's just like I struggle to tune out the tag on my shirt or the people walking down the street. I take in a lot of emotional stimuli. And then on top of that we tend to have a pretty strong negativity bias.

Cate: Yeah.

Michelle: Your brain's really hook and get a bit stuck. And then we of course have the confounding issues around anxiety and, you know, like intrusive, like ruminative thoughts and struggles around like the mood or self-concept. And you can get all chicken and the egg up in there, right? But like at the same time, I think ADHD life is inherently stressful. So, we can also just add that contextually. There's more to worry about sometimes. Let's just be honest.

Cate: Yes, thank you. Sorry I yelled. I got excited.

Michelle: I know you're right. Like, you know...

Cate: It's just there's a little more to coordinate sometimes.

Michelle: It's just a little more. And it's a little harder to do it. And I might forget the thing. I've forgotten the thing. I might forget it again. And so, I might be a little more vigilant towards forgetting. There's a lot of elements to it. So, knowing that "OK, I know I have big emotions, like I have big feels," I think just makes it easier to say, "OK, well then what do I need around that?" We each have to kind of discover our own brand of like, how do we get in there and feel our feelings in a way that works for us and and aligns?

So, part of it is emotional regulation, frankly. And then the rest of it, the rejection sensitivity piece, man, yeah, just, sorry, I had this just image across of like an email from a boss or something, you know, like that ADHD moment of "Oh no. And then of course you open the email and they're like, "Great job, you know?" And you're like, "I thought I was going to get fired." So, that kind of thing happening all the time.

And it's sort of like, OK, well then we have some patterning and if we can just slow down, which I know is not always the strong suit, but we can practice the slowing down long enough to say, "I know what's happening here and it's OK," then we've got a better shot. For most people I work with, I think just understanding and having language around RSD goes a long way.

(20:48) People pleasing versus building authentic connections

Cate: OK, so we're talking about RSD. We're talking about building emotional intimacy. Something that we haven't touched on, which I know a lot of women with ADHD tend to live with, is that sort of people-pleasing perfectionist side of themselves. I loved what you said. You said like getting comfortable with your own brand. Like it took me so long to love my brand. It took me a really long time to be like, "Oh my brand is what my brand is, but that's just who I am. And you know, I'm not going to change it." And it turned out that my life is way better once I started embracing it.

But for a really long time I was really embarrassed about my brand. For a really long time I was trying to be a very different version of Cate because I thought that's what the people around me wanted. So, how do we, knowing we have this component piece of RSD, we have this emotional dysregulation component, we also can tend to be people pleasers and perfectionists and this kind of thing. So, how do we, as women with ADHD, build authentic connections?

Michelle: So, again, I think we're back to this idea of "What if I just tried it?"

Cate: Yeah.

Michelle: Part of it, though, is sourcing the types of people we want in our lives. Like trying to find people can be really hard as an adult, and so finding people who get it can be really important. And sometimes that looks like maybe, you know, an ADHD group or having other friends who are neurodivergent in some way or the other and trying to find those people that understand this particular part of your life. That being said, I don't think everybody needs to. I think you find people who in some way demonstrate that they're worth taking that risk on, but without making them do gymnastics either.

(22:36) What about when we’re in a relationship without emotional intimacy?

Cate: So, let's say that we are a woman with ADHD, we're in a relationship with a partner who sees us, who supports us, who is doing their best. But we're still feeling that missing emotional intimacy. We're still feeling like I'm not quite connecting in the way that I need or want. Do you have any advice for those people who are maybe in a really solid relationship that they've just never learned those emotional intimacy skills?

Michelle: Yeah, I love that quote. It's a Rumi quote and says, I'm going to butcher it, of course. And it says something along the lines of like, "Do not search for love, but search for all the barriers within you to love." Like. I think then you've got to go on a dive and ask yourself one, what does it mean to me and what would it look like to have that quality of connection that I longed for? Sounds that it can be hard, actually.

Cate: Yeah.

Michelle: I mean, it sounds like a simple one off questions, but actually sit and think about that for a while. You know.

Cate: That's a big question.

Michelle: Because this is a big question. So, maybe defining a little bit more of like, how would you know if you had that quality? Like what would that feel like? What would that look like and make it more tangible. The second piece there is really saying, how have I not been fully open to intimacy?

Cate: Yeah.

Michelle: How have I myself been a bit unavailable or a bit guarded? And then begin to call yourself out on it a little bit.

Cate: It's that self-awareness component.

Michelle: Yeah. When my partner shares something with me, how do I respond? How do I respond to my partner's differences and challenges? Do I pull that critical voice like with myself? Do I, you know, does it, does it get project like, I don't know.

Cate: I've been so guilty of that as a partner.

Michelle: Yeah, right.

Cate: And I was like, "Oh I really don't like that about myself. Like, that voice is for me, not for them."

Michelle: Because it's hard to accept. And like, our closest attachment figure is what we can't accept in ourselves. Have a kid and find out about that one, you know? So, I think too like this idea of emotional intimacy, I was thinking about what does that require? It requires emotional regulation so that you can be grounded enough to show up with presence. That is what creates vulnerability. And I think it's OK too to start at small places by saying things like, "Hey, this feels weird and vulnerable to share, and you might not think so at all, but here I go."

Cate: Yeah, just naming it.

Michelle: Yeah. You know, like, can you name the clunkiness with someone? Because then, to me, you're in it. The second you can name clunkiness with someone, you're there.

Cate: Oh I love that. And then you have a secret code because you can just be like, "Hey, this feels a little clunky, but."

Michelle: Can I tell you a clunky?

Cate: Hit me with them clunks, doc.

Michelle: Yeah. Where are we going? I don't know. So, you know. Exactly. And so, now we're in it. And now there it is. And there it is. And there's the authenticity, right? Where we can like, be weirdly quirky together we can have this moment and we can like, say, feelings are awkward. And then there you go. There's your intimacy. Like, it doesn't have to look like a three-hour, deeply intense conversation about our feelings. Yeah, right?

Cate: I'm fine. I'm fine. Intimacy can look different in different relationships based on your own specific needs.

Michelle: Yes, absolutely.

Cate: There can be a five-minute conversation. It doesn't have to be an hour long conversation every time. Oh my God.

Michelle: Yes. Like, I think that's the other thing is maybe sometimes we think that emotional intimacy needs to be like these sit downs, these intense emotional discussions. But intimacy can be experiencing something together, having a shared experience. Looking out at the majestic mountains together like you and I on this hike, taking in this scene, in this moment together. We just shared that. That's actually quite intimate and that whatever we talked about or didn't talk about on the hike up and back.

So, it doesn't have to be that it's like full of this deep emotional processing or disclosure. Like it's also I mean, some of that you got to have, especially in a romantic relationship. You gotta process "Hey, how we doing?" You got to at some point. But it's OK also what we know about like to have a tangent on, in a romantic relationship. What we know is like people have different styles around like emotional closeness and like comfort with conflict or just conflict avoidant. It doesn't matter so much what the style is. It matters that it matches and it works for that couple and that they repair conflict and rupture.

Cate: Yeah.

Michelle: So, like, you might have two people who really love to get deep and have deep philosophical or emotional discussions. Cool. But you might have two people who just want to like, do some crafts together and be able to be silent. Like, if I can be quiet with you, that's where I like the most intimacy. And I think that's OK.

Cate: I cannot tell you how funny that is specifically because of how everything, every surface you cannot see behind the camera is just covered in craft supplies because that's what me and my partner do. We just sit around, and make crafts together.

Michelle: There you go. See?

Cate: We're like yeah. We're just going to sit in vibe and talk when we feel like talking. It's so great. I love it.

Michelle: So, maybe part of what we're coming to here, Cate, is like this idea that you get to define what intimacy means for you. We started out trying to define it for the listener, and maybe we stumbled our way into something even cooler, which is this idea that. You get to define it for yourself?

Cate: Yeah. Emotional intimacy comes from the place that we define, and we get to, like, invite people into that space. Yeah. And that feels special and sacred A little bit.

Michelle: It does. And there isn't one. Again, back to the beginning box that you need to fit into to capture that.

Cate: Yeah.

Michelle: It does take some reflection and some, like, deep dives into...

Cate: Vulnerability.

Michelle: Vulnerability. Yeah. Like, how did I come to understand myself and the ways I understand myself, treat myself, the way I treat myself, engage in relationships the way I do. But then from there, well, what do I want now? And I think it's OK to keep figuring that out as you go. Like maybe the other takeaway we want to have is like, you don't think there's some perfect endpoint you get to?

Cate: Yeah, it's a work in progress.

Michelle: I still am.

Cate: Yeah, I sure am.

Cate: So, it's more about creating the spaces where people can share in all of these experiences and having that thinker into the ADHDness specifically, I think feels so freeing and lovely.

(28:41) Where can you find Michelle?

Cate: Michelle Frank, thank you so much for being here. You are a psychologist. You are a speaker. You are an author. You are a content creator. Tell the people where they can find you and the incredible work that you're doing.

Michelle: I just want to say I'm just going to play that for myself every morning to counteract any future shame spirals the day brings about.

Cate: I got that. You want a better one? Michelle Frank, you are talented and amazing and cool. You are powerful. You are wise.

Michelle: Yes.

Cate: You are helpful.

Michelle: Yes.

Cate: You are strong.

Michelle: Yes.

Cate: Tell the people where to find you strong Michelle Frank.

Michelle: Yes, I have an Instagram I have not contributed to in a little bit because I have a toddler. But you can look up ADHDdoc on Instagram. You can also just find me at EnrichCenter.org, that's the name of the small group practice I work for in the Denver metro area. I also tend to just pop in to different podcasts and conferences, so feel free to just come say hello any time. You can also shoot me an email if you have any burning questions, doctorFrank@enrichcenter.org.

Cate: And we will also link your book "A Radical Guide for Women with ADHD" in the show notes. So, you can check it out because if we are talking about vulnerability and here's a clunker, I got a clunker for you, Michelle Frank.

Michelle: Oh yeah.

Cate: I was so scared to have you on the show because your book was one of the first ones that I read after I got an ADHD diagnosis. And I was like, so, "Oh man, she's so smart and cool. I'm going to blow it." So thank you for being such a wonderful guest and for writing such an incredible book and being a part of so many women's journeys. I really appreciate it.

Michelle: Well, thank you so much. And a clunker for me is every time I do a show like this, I'm like "Oh no, what if I blow it?" So, there you go. We didn't blow it together.

Cate: I can tell you quantifiably, you did not in fact, blow it. You in fact, crushed it.

Michelle: Crushed.

Cate: Crushed. So good.

Cate: Thank you for listening. Anything mentioned in the episode will be linked in the show notes with more resources. Have a question, comment, burning story you'd like to share? Email us at sorryimissedthis@understood.org.

This show is brought to you by Understood.org. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences like ADHD and dyslexia. If you want to help us continue this work, donate at Understood.org/give.

"Sorry, I Missed This" is produced and edited by Jessamine Molli and Margie DeSantis. Video is produced by Calvin Knie. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. Ash Beecher is our supervising producer. Briana Berry is our production director. Neil Drumming is our editorial director. For Understood.org, our executive directors are Laura Key, Scott Cocchiere, and Seth Melnick. And I'm your host, Cate Osborn. Thank you so much for listening.

What is the thing that I want to say? Jessamine, edit this part out.