What’s scary about ADHD? (Ghost hunter Em Schulz’s story)

Em Schulz thought they were just lazy growing up. Years later, after discovering that not everyone’s TikTok was full of ADHD tips that “weirdly work,” they realized they might have ADHD.

Em is a paranormal investigator (aka ghost hunter) and co-host of the And That’s Why We Drink podcast. Em and Laura chat about ghosts and ghosting, as in ghosting relationships — a not uncommon ADHD behavior. And Em shares their take on whether people believe less in ghosts or ADHD.

Want to share your “aha” moment? We love hearing from our listeners. Email us at ADHDAha@understood.org.

Related resources

• Em’s podcast website, andthatswhywedrink.com

• “Is ADHD real?” What experts say when people doubt ADHD

• ADHD fact sheet

Timestamps

(01:32) What it’s like being a paranormal investigator

(06:13) What do people believe in less: ADHD or ghosts?

(07:02) Growing up with undiagnosed ADHD

(10:42) Em’s pandemic diagnosis

(14:02) TikTok ADHD tips that resonated with Em

(15:39) How did Em’s ADHD diagnosis change their life?

(16:55) What’s scary about ADHD?

(18:34) Why Em became a paranormal investigator

(19:33) ADHD creativity at night

(20:28) Scary movies

(23:43) Where you can find Em

Episode transcript

Laura: Are you ready for this transition?

EM: Absolutely.

Laura: Ready? Do you encounter more people who Pooh Pooh bah humbug, don't believe in ghosts or more people who Pooh Pooh how difficult ADHD can be? That it's not real.

Em: Wow.

Laura: I didn't even plan that, by the way.

Em: Interesting. Probably ADHD.

Laura: This is "ADHD Aha!," a podcast where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they have ADHD. My name is Laura Key. I head up our editorial team here at Understood.org, and as someone who's had my own ADHD "aha" moment, I'll be your host.

I am very excited to be here today with Em Schulz. Em is an author, host of the "And That's Why We Drink" podcast, and they're also a paranormal investigator, a.k.a. ghost hunter — perhaps the most fascinating job I've ever heard of. We'll get into all of that. Em, welcome. Thanks for being here today.

Em: Thank you for having me and also for the introduction. You make me sound much cooler than I actually am.

Laura: I feel like people don't give themselves enough credit for how cool they actually are, just in life.

Em: I had to think recently, well, someone did the classic like if you could go back and tell your younger self something about you, I ended up thinking about how much they would probably be blown away, like the cool things I've done, which is such an honor because teenagers scared the hell out of me, especially if the teenager is me.

(01:32) What it's like being a paranormal investigator

Laura: Well, speaking of teenagers scaring the hell out of you, tell me about what is the day in the life of a ghost hunter. What do you do?

Em: Well, so when we're doing an investigation — we just came off of one a couple of months ago — what it usually looks like is reaching out to a location, figuring out what they're about, because some of them have specific rules on what you can do or what you can't do, or if you can film, what rooms you can film in or a lot of them have different hours.

Some of them you're allowed to see the entire night. Some places they've only given us until like 11:00 at night, which feels kind of counterintuitive because when you want to be there until like the wee hours, I'm going to want to look up if they have any blueprints of the house or if they can send us a walkthrough video of the house. That way I have an idea of how many rooms there are, how many cameras are set up, how many different types of equipment to bring.

I'll do a lot of research on the location. I'll try to reach out to as many people on the types of haunts and what usually works there, because there's some pieces of equipment that I think are really incredible and they just are famous for not working at that place if other investigators have brought it. So, I'll try to cater, it's a lot of catering.

Laura: Well, what's your goal?

Em: Well, I'm glad you asked, because when I first became a ghost hunter, I'm still like this, by the way, but I assumed everyone just, like, wanted to, like, go have, like, a cool ghost experience. And when I first started, I realized that most people in the ghost-hunting community are like scientists in their day to day, and their whole thing is trying to just debunk any evidence.

I was not ever in that camp, so I was always like the kid that was kind of tagging along while they were trying to do like science experiments. And I was just like excited to see a ghost. So, I guess my goal is different than most where I'm just trying to have an experience. A lot of people out there are trying to actually professionally debunk it.

And when I go to a location, first and foremost, I just want to have fun. I do try to debunk it. I try to make sure it's like as authentic as possible. If we've ever shown evidence, it is legitimate and we have done everything we can to debunk it. But that's not my first priority. I just want to have a cool story.

Laura: Is Halloween a busy season for you?

Em: It used to be. I was much more active in it when I was in college, but now, since I'm a podcaster who does ghost hunting on the side, it seems that we're doing it once or twice a year, which I'm fine with. As you get older, the last thing you really want to do is be up until sunrise.

Laura: What's the scariest thing you've ever seen related to your work? I imagine there are plenty of scary things that we all encounter in our personal lives and politics, etc.

Em: Teenagers.

Laura: So, actually, teenagers don't forget them. But through your work.

Em: This hasn't happened in recent years but way back when I was in a house by myself up in the attic and I remember kind of like blacking out and getting scratched on my hand. Not blacking out in a way where like I came to and it was hours later, but I kind of just like have like a memory loss of what happened. And I remember feeling something on my hand and it burning and it just being like a really gnarly scratch for a very long time.

So, that was probably the scariest thing just because it was the only real physical thing that's happened. Ever since then, I have learned more about my own boundaries. And you know what I'm willing to tolerate. I don't know if they can overstep boundaries like that and hurt you without your permission, but it has never happened to me since.

But I actively, before I go into any house, I'm like, "You are not allowed to touch us. You can do whatever you want. You can mess up everything. You can break our expensive equipment. You can not touch me." And since then it hasn't happened. Which I'm very lucky for.

But the feeling, though, of just being in a haunted room is sometimes scary enough, which I sound, it sounds so lame, but there are times where you just go into a room and you know that you're absolutely not wanted there. And usually, that's when I run the other direction and maybe that's why I'm not getting hurt anymore. So, but yeah, the feeling alone is, is probably the scariest thing that's happened.

Laura: What do you say to people who don't believe in ghosts?

Em: I'm dating one.

Laura: OK.

Em: And it's not a total crisis for us, but I don't like it, because if I ever come back with some really cool evidence, she's like, the first one to, like, bah humbug me. So.

Laura: I mean, it's got to be hard because it's your profession, right? Like, this is something you obviously that you take very seriously.

Em: Yeah. It's also in my brain, there's like no other option. I've just had too many experiences and seen too many things and heard too many things that it's like saying the sky isn't blue. So, I understand that some people just haven't had those experiences or just maybe are more closed off to it. So, I use it sometimes as an icebreaker to see where people land.

If I'm at a party, I'll say it because if there's ever a lull in conversation, no matter who you are, it gets things going, if I tell you I'm a ghost hunter. But as soon as people tell me that they don't really believe in ghosts, I kind of back away from that.

(06:13) What do people believe in less: ADHD or ghosts?

Laura: Are you ready for this transition?

Em: Absolutely.

Laura: Ready? Do you encounter more people who Pooh Pooh bah humbug, don't believe in ghosts or more people who Pooh Pooh how difficult ADHD can be? That it's not real.

Em: Wow.

Laura: I didn't even plan that, by the way.

Em: Interesting. Probably ADHD. I grew up in Virginia. A lot of my friends and family are kind of in the South, so I think they're quicker to bah humbug mental illness than like spirits, just because it's the South, they might be a little more religious. So, yeah, I would go with ADHD. I feel like especially the older generations, if you're not 35 or 40 or younger, it's like not even worth talking about. With my own family, even the most open-minded of them just it just doesn't really resonate when I try to explain my journey.

(07:02) Growing up with undiagnosed ADHD

Laura: Tell me about growing up and when you started to notice ADHD symptoms and what was going on.

Em: Well, I feel like looking back on my childhood, it's kind of difficult because I, which I'm unlearning, but my first thought was, "Well, I wasn't really hyperactive" and now we know that that's like not the tell-all sign. But in my own mind, I was very fidgety. I can never shut up. I felt like even as a child, I was kind of juggling a lot of things in the air. And it didn't really hit me until puberty, when all of a sudden, I guess having a routine when I was a kid didn't really work the way that it originally did.

Now that I've hit my teen years, I was much more scatterbrained. I used to be effortlessly good with my homework. Once I got to middle school, it was really difficult to even motivate myself to sit down and read a page of a book. Everything was turned in late. Everything was turned and kind of sloppy just because I was doing it at the last minute.

Then I just learned over time that I operate best on a time crunch, and I keep trying to get away from that, even as an adult. But it's still really true that if the time crunch isn't there and it does need to be done in the next 48 hours, it's just not going to get done.

Laura: I think when we last spoke, you mentioned that you thought of yourself as a lazy teenager.

Em: I thought I was lazy mainly because at the time it didn't occur to me that motivation was the issue I was having. I actually also thought that I might be depressed. I just constantly just wanted to be in bed. I just kind of want to like rot on the couch. So, I assumed that meant depression because all the PSAs back then were "If you're, if you can't get out of bed, you must be depressed." And I was like, "But I don't really feel sad. I just can't begin a single thing that is on my list for the day."

And so, I assumed I must just be lazy because it definitely presents that way to other people when they see you not moving or doing anything. But in my head, I was going through this constant battle of like, how do... You just get yourself to do one thing. But I couldn't decide what the one thing was because it's never one big task. It's always twenty tiny tasks. And so, it's already so overwhelming in my head to just go do laundry because you can't do laundry. You have to go... First, you have to get out of bed. That's its own task, which sounds crazy to people who don't deal with this.

Laura: No, but it is. Yeah.

Em: I have to get out of bed. I have to go find all of the clothes that are on the floor because I never made it into the hamper. I have to get them into the laundry room. But then once I get to the laundry room, I'm going to get distracted by how that's messy. I need to organize that. I knew how many steps there were going to be before I could finish one thing on the list that if I had ten things to do that day, it just felt like, well, I might as well not start, and then it would snowball.

So, again, it looked like I was lazy, but in my head I'm just thinking about how things are building and building and I'm not achieving anything. And then by the time I get to one task, then I'm totally burned out because I've mentally stressed with that for so long.

Laura: Did anybody notice, like anybody think maybe this is ADHD?

Em: Never. No, That was never on anybody's radar. Back then, nobody was talking about it, especially for girls. And I grew up in a house where I needed to like, be on my really best behavior or else there were consequences. I grew up with an abrasive parent, and I think I was able to mask very well from a young age, especially because it was all internal and mental, and I just looked at lazy versus causing a lot of chaos.

I think it was one of the ways I could be a disruption. That was not a bad one and I kind of was able to look lazy and not bother anybody that way. And any of my other issues, it was all inside my head, so nobody really noticed. And I didn't know that that was somewhat of a unique experience. I thought everyone felt that way, so I never even voiced it.

(10:42) Em's pandemic diagnosis

Laura: Tell me about the pandemic. You know, everybody's favorite topic. Tell me what was going on during that time. And obviously, you had noticed ADHD symptoms before in your life, I don't know if you had a name for them, but what was it about that time period that led you to seek out an evaluation?

Em: TikTok.

Laura: TikTok.

Em: Which I know that's, it's like these days, it feels like the cheap shot of answers. I feel like everyone's discovering way too personal things about themselves through TikTok, but they're not lying about that algorithm.

Laura: I was just going to say that.

Em: Within days of being on TikTok, I was getting videos about ADHD, and I was like, "Huh, this app really seems to like cater to people with ADHD. That's crazy." I had no concept of an algorithm and that I was being very targeted, but I was like, "Wow, there's a lot of ADHD videos on TikTok. That's weird." And then I talked to other people and they'd be like, "That's not what my TikTok looks like."

Laura: Oh wait, that's really interesting. That's really funny.

Em: Wait, is this about me? Is this like, do I need to pay attention to this?" A lot of people I know realized through TikTok that they were queer. A lot of people had, did a lot of deconstructing over the pandemic just because the right videos were coming at them and they learned that about themselves. So, I feel like a lot of people had some sort of "aha" moment come out of TikTok.

Laura: Yeah, "ADHD Aha!" brought to you by TikTok. I mean, fun.

Em: Collab of the century. Yeah. So, our mutual friend Cate, they ended up showing up on my feed very quickly. And I mean, I didn't even really know what I was looking at. It was Cate, and there was like 2 or 3 other creators who kept showing up. But Cate was the one who kept making me have like, these moments because they did such a good job of comparing what I was going through and then giving us kind of either the science behind it or an explanation behind why or giving like really helpful tips.

I think that was what actually was the most helpful was that I was seeing all these videos about tips for people with ADHD. And I was thinking, "Well, I don't have ADHD, but these tips are pretty damn good." And then I started doing them and I was like, "Wait a minute, what's going on here?" And it just kind of worked out where I was like, "Oh maybe there's something here."

And because I was liking so many of their videos, other videos started showing up about ADHD and it just kind of spiraled into "Go to a doctor, you have ADHD," and it just felt way too relatable, the content, in a way that when I would talk about it with other people, they were like, "That's kind of interesting, but I don't know why you're so about this." And then I realized I was actually hyperfixating on the fact that I hyperfixate, which was its own funny moment.

Laura: Wow. That's super meta.

Em: I know. It was very helpful and it made me want to get a diagnosis right away. But before I even got the diagnosis, I was so sure, it was, there was no doubt in my mind that I had ADHD and I wanted the official confirmation from somebody. And when I went to a doctor about it, I never even got to get to that point because the psychiatrist immediately clocked me and went, "Well, you have ADHD, right? Are you on any like Adderall or anything?" And I went, "Well, actually, I'm here..."

Laura: Wait, why did they clock you? Like, what was being noticed, do you think?

Em: They said, "Tell me why you're here," and I guess I just spent too long giving a back story. I mean, I never asked, but I'm assuming that's what it was, because it was out of nowhere. It felt a little kind of like an attack. I was like, "Well, OK, I get it."

Laura: Well, shout out Cate Osborn, little plug here for Cate's show in the "MissUnderstood" ADHD in women channel called "Sorry, I Missed This," cue the music. No, but anyways, no, Cate is phenomenal and it doesn't surprise me that they contributed to your "aha" moment.

(14:02) TikTok ADHD tips that resonated with Em

Were there particular tips or topics within that ADHD umbrella under that ADHD umbrella that really resonated with you the most?

Em: Well, this is where I give a shout-out to Cate's TikTok, Catieosaurus, because that's where you could find every single cue music because that's where every single tip is. But some of the first ones are like, "Don't ever sit down when you're in task mode. Like always have shoes on because if you have your shoes on then you're less likely to sit down."

Laura: Speak for yourself. But yeah, I know.

Em: That one was super helpful for me because I usually, whenever I get a little tired, I immediately head for the bed and I'll just lie down on the bed. But I've never, I'm never going to lie down on my bed with my shoes on. And then the other ones were just gamifying things and trying to find ways to make things more interesting. I am a strong believer in fun little treats. I call them FLTs, fun little treats.

I really love a reward for even the most mundane task. Even if it's like, "Oh you can't go to the bathroom until you've finished these five pages. If you don't, if you go to the bathroom, you're going to get up, you're going to go pee, you're going to come out, you're going to get distracted by something, you're never going to finish these five pages."

So, I'm very big on like always finding a fun little treat wherever I can. And right now I'm doing a bunch of work on my computer and I'm like, "OK, I have to do ten more sentences and then I can go get myself a cup of water." And it's almost like the reward is getting up and moving because I want to fidget. So, it's like you get to fidget once you get this part done.

Laura: I like that term, FLT, but I think my go-to FLT is if I get through X amount of time of something, then I get to go play a game of Boggle on my phone.

Em: OK.

(15:39) How did Em's ADHD diagnosis change their life?

Laura: The word scramble thing. How did that diagnosis affect your perception of yourself? And, you know, for better or for worse, I'm putting worse in quotes here, and just how did it change your life?

Em: So, the main thing that happened, which was very lovely, is I really did start to break away from my shame of like, why can't I do X, Y, Z? And then realizing that there was an explanation all along. So, at first, there was a sigh of relief of like, "Oh it's not all on me that this is happening." And now that I actually know there is something going on, I can even try to find ways to treat it or work with it so that way, even if it isn't my fault, I can still try to mend some of what's going on here.

So, in some ways, it was a sigh of relief. But very quickly after that came a lot of anger because I was just like, "How did everybody miss this?" Especially when I started telling people, "I just got diagnosed with ADHD," everybody in my life started going, "Oh yeah, well, that tracks." "Oh, if it was that easy to clock, then why didn't you ever say anything?" So, I feel like I was angry because I was grieving a lost alternate reality where had I had this support some place, where could I have ended up?

I think now, about all the times I was struggling in school and had there been someone helping me, then, you know, could I have gotten into a different college? Would I have ended up in a different city? Would I...you know, the butterfly effect? Where would I have ended up in this world?

(16:55) What's scary about ADHD?

Laura: What are the scariest things about ADHD to you? We're not trying to scare listeners about ADHD, by the way, but that's the point of this show.

Em: No, but it's scary. But one of the things I was actually really helpful to me when I first got my diagnosis was through TikTok and watching a bunch of people kind of commiserate in like the downsides of ADHD. And they were things I had never thought of, but it really to recognize them also meant that I was able to break away from the shame, at least because I knew, "Oh there's an explanation for this outside of like I just can't figure out how to operate."

So, in that way, I like talking about the downside because I'm like, at least I recognize and it's not my fault. But I think the biggest one is just not being able to maintain relationships. I've lost really great friendships because I just couldn't get back to them and by the time I was able to get back to them, so much time had passed. It was just incredibly awkward. I mean, years, years would go by before I could get back to them.

And at some point in the middle of us not talking and us talking again, I had to have a real come to Jesus meeting in the mirror about, you know, "Am I even going to reach out to them? Because how do I explain that it's not you, I just forgot for years." Or "Hey, I've been thinking about this for months and there's no clean pretty way to say this, but I want to get back in touch. And it's my own fault that we got out of touch to begin with."

And luckily I've had some friends where I've reached out like that and everything ended up being totally fine. But there was a really embarrassing period where I had to like address the elephant in the room that I just walked away from a really significant relationship because I just kept pushing off, getting back to them. For me, that's the scariest because it's the most personal.

(18:34) Why Em became a paranormal investigator

Laura: Did you become a ghost hunter before or after your diagnosis?

Em: Before. I wanted to be a ghostwriter since I was seven.

Laura: What happened when you were seven?

Em: I saw my first ghost when I was seven. My grandfather passed and I saw him sitting on my bed a week after he died. And because I was seven, I didn't understand what was going on. I just thought Grandpa was visiting. I had really minimal to none of a concept of death. And my mom, my mom was like, "You saw who?" So, the next day I was like, "I want to be a ghost hunter when I grow up." I probably said ghostbuster.

Laura: Yeah. I was going to say, how did you even know that that was a potential career?

Em: Yeah, I must have said ghostbuster because that was the only reference I had at seven in the 90s, but I'm sure at the time she said, "Good luck. I don't know anyone who actually gets to be a ghostbuster." But when I got to college, I started doing ghost tours. And then through there I made connections where I started actually going on investigations. And so, it just kind of worked out.

Laura: And you mentioned that, you know, 2:00 in the morning is your sweet spot. So, this job is really good for that.

(19:33) ADHD creativity at night

Tell me about, like, the bursts of creativity that you get with ADHD. You've mentioned this to me.

Em: It feels almost like a manic state. I just get like this like adrenaline rush that I just have never seen during the day, which is wild. I feel like I'm so much more creative. I feel like I can get things done so much faster. I feel like my problem-solving skills are operating at like a ten out of ten during the day as I'm constantly either sluggish or just struggling to like do the bare minimum and keep up with everybody.

But it must be because I'm by myself, or it's because the isolation of like the nights and like no one's here to bother me and I can finally just be my wacky self and not have to mask in front of others. I don't know what the reasoning is, but the second that everyone goes to bed and I'm by myself, I just thrive at getting anything done. And then I wake up the next day and everyone else seems that active during the day and I'm just like trying to pull myself out of bed.

Laura: OK, I have to dive in, I've been waiting this whole time to ask because I love scary movies. Do you like scary movies?

Em: I do.

Laura: I know there are so many genres of horror movies, but I have to know, do you have a favorite?

(20:28) Scary movies

Em: You know, full circle, because I was talking about like, if I could talk to younger me. Younger me was, I think, the biggest horror movie fan in the entire world. And when I was like 14 or 15, I think horror movies were like my whole personality. Nowadays, as I'm, my body is aging and I have developed anxiety about everything, I can almost only watch certain types of horror movies without having a panic attack that it could really happen to me in real life.

And those used to be the ones that really got me. I was like, "Yes, it could happen." Like, I don't know what's wrong with me, but I was a kid. It just was so exhilarating. And now I'm like, "Please don't make me watch that." But as a kid, the one that blew my mind was "Saw," the first one.

Laura: Oh yeah. That's horrifying. Yeah, I saw that too.

Em: Now, in hindsight, I'm like, why was there, like, "Saw 17?" There's, that's unnecessary. But yeah, so the "Saw" franchise was the one that really blew me away and I...The first one to ever disturb me, which still disturbs me to this day, is "The Strangers."

Laura: Yes. Yeah. Liv Tyler, right? Yeah.

Em: That's the only one where I've had to turn it off and like, wait until it was light outside to finish.

Laura: Can I tell you that I saw that in the theaters twice in a row.

Em: You're sick. You're sick.

Laura: Same day, by myself, because I was going through a terrible breakup and I needed to be scared out of my emotions.

Em: You know what? Not as sick as I thought. That actually makes a lot of sense. You had to force yourself to feel something else.

Laura: I need to be taken to another place. And like it was, it took like, a hammer to get me there. What movie about that features ghosts or paranormal activity do you think gets it the most right based on your experience?

Em: Oh, that's a great question. What was the one where he came up with essentially like a radio to talk to his wife?

Laura: Oh yeah. What was that?

Em: Whatever it was. That one feels the most "White Noise."

Laura: Producer Jessamine coming in with the assists. Thank you. Yes, "White Noise."

Em: "White Noise." I think "White Noise" it's certainly not entirely realistic because I'm, you know, not just using it to like basically Facetime my wife, but that one feels the most accurate in terms of equipment where you're just kind of just it's a lot of touch and go and you hope something works. And also that machine that he created is very similar to what's called the Spirit Box, which I do use at every investigation anyway. So, in that way I'm like, "I guess I can relate to that. They at least tried to mention the equipment."

But yeah, I don't know if any of them have gotten it totally right. I think ghost hunting, what a lot of people don't realize, is a lot of it is incredibly boring. A lot of it is sit and wait for a shadow to move or for something to make a sound. And a lot of times you don't even hear that until you're looking at the footage later. So, you really just have to go off of like vibes. You have to just sense if you're scared or not.

And one of the things that me and the two people I investigate with is that we're doing it for video content. So, it's quite a struggle that...

Laura: I bet. Yeah.

Em: That doesn't translate well to camera, when you're like, "I don't feel good." Like, "OK, well, no one cares about that. Like, we want to see something move."

Laura: Also, it sounds like it takes a lot of patience and focus, ahem, ADHD. I'm just so glad that you spent this time with me today. Do you have anything that you want to plug, Em?

(23:43) Where you can find Em

Em: Oh, I should do that. Yeah. I have a podcast. It's called "And That's Why We Drink." We're coming up on our 400th episode. Or I guess by the time this comes out, we'll have hit our 400th. And we have two books. We have "A Haunted Road Atlas," and then the next one, which just came out September 29th, is "A Haunted Road Atlas: Next Stop." And they're both travel guides full of true crime and paranormal landmarks.

So, if you're on your next road trip and you want to see some of the creepier things going on in that area, you can. And we're on tour right now. So, if you want to go see us live where you can see the footage of our ghost investigation, then you can go to our website AndThat'sWhyWeDrink.com, and we've got a little tab for you to go buy tickets.

Laura: Cool. Everybody, check that out. Em, thank you so much for being here today. I hope you have a wonderful Halloween. Thanks again for being here.

Em: Of course. Thank you so much.

Laura: Thanks for listening. As always, if you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDaha@understood.org. I'd love to hear from you. Be sure to check out the show notes for this episode. We have more resources and links to anything we mentioned.

This show is brought to you by Understood.org. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences like ADHD and dyslexia. If you want to help us continue this work, donate at Understood.org/give. "ADHD Aha!" is produced and edited by Jessamine Molli. Jessamine, are you there?

Jessamine: Hi everyone. I'm still here.

Laura: And Margie DeSantis.

Margie: Hey, hey.

Laura: Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. Ilana Millner is our supervising producer. Briana Berry is our production director. Neil Drumming is our editorial director. Creative and production leadership from Scott Cocchiere and Seth Melnick. And I'm your host, Laura Key. Thanks so much for listening.