When ADHD is mistaken for disobedience (Kayla Sanders’ story)

Growing up as a Black girl with undiagnosed ADHD, Kayla Sanders learned very early that getting into trouble was not an option. Kayla was imaginative, playful, and extremely bright. She was also hyperactive, which was occasionally mistaken for disobedience. 

One incident in particular in the first grade left a lasting mark on Kayla. From then on out, Kayla did everything she could to avoid causing trouble for her hard-working, loving mom. She pushed down her hyperactivity and masked her symptoms for years. Then, during the pandemic, Kayla was finally diagnosed with ADHD.  

Join Kayla and host Laura Key’s chat on ADHD and masking, and the added pressure that comes from racial bias.

Want to share your “aha” moment? We love hearing from our listeners. Email us at ADHDAha@understood.org.

Related resources

• To be Black in America with a learning disability

• Bias in school discipline: When the teacher says your child is “acting out”, from Opportunity Gap

• ADHD and rejection sensitive dysphoria (RSD)

Timestamps

(01:10) Kayla’s pandemic ADHD diagnosis story

(06:53) Kayla’s childhood behavior

(09:45) The pressure to mask ADHD as a Black woman

(13:56) Covering up “mistakes” in the classroom

(15:35) Kayla’s relationship with her mom

(20:11) Cultural masking, and the intersection of ADHD and race

Episode transcript

Kayla: At the time when I got in trouble for it, I just understood it as I was being disobedient. And then as I got older, I understood as I was being disobedient and not doing myself any justice in a world that already doesn't want to.

Laura: This is "ADHD Aha!," a podcast where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they have ADHD. My name is Laura Key. I head up our editorial team here at Understood.org, and as someone who's had my own ADHD "aha" moment, I'll be your host.

I am here today with Kayla Sanders. Kayla is an education researcher who wrote in to share her ADHD story with us. Thank you, Kayla, for writing in, and thank you for being here today. How are you?

Kayla: You so much. I'm glad to be here. I'm doing well. Yeah, I'm doing well this morning. How are you?

Laura: I'm OK. Yeah, I'm OK. I always get, like a little jittery right before I start an interview, but then I just, then we just kind of ease into it, you know?

Kayla: Yeah. Definitely.

(01:10) Kayla’s pandemic ADHD diagnosis story

Laura: So, away we go. And the way that we usually ease into it is I like to start by talking about your ADHD diagnosis, and I know that you were a pandemic diagnosis. So, what was happening in your life?

Kayla: It's funny because I think when I wrote and I said I was I was diagnosed literally, I think a week before we went remote. And so, at the time, I was going to law school in D.C. so I was in my second year, and I think over the past maybe year or so, couple of years, I, my whole life, but I was having a lot of trouble with staying focused.

You know, I did fine in law school, it was just that there was a lot of struggling through it to do fine, and a lot of that was just kind of like if I wasn't stimulating myself in class with you know, however, I took notes, I had to make sure I took notes in a way that really kept me engaged because otherwise I'd be falling asleep and I can't possibly class. That's, one, that's rude. Two, that's embarrassing.

And then I also had some friends at the time who were pointing different things out for me. And I remember this, I always go back to this because there was a time where it was me, I want to say it was like a group of like five of us were sitting in like this lounge area at school and they were all diagnosed with ADHD by this point, I was not. And so, at some point, one of them makes a comment about how, like "ADHD people, we always find each other, like all of us here have ADHD." And I was just like, "Well, I don't have ADHD," but I, you know, little did we know.

Laura: Why did you think that you didn't have ADHD?

Kayla: I think my whole life I didn't have a reason to get tested or at least school never flagged a reason for me to be tested. I got A's and B's throughout grade school. I didn't have my first C until the 11th grade, and it was devastating. It was devastating. It was pre-calculus. High school was where math got really hard.

Laura: Pre-calc is brutal.

Kayla: Pre-calc was brutal. And I was just like, "This is going to be on my transcripts and I'm not going to get into college. And this is terrible." And it's just like...girl.

Laura: I was just going to say, Kayla, yeah, a C, like one C in the history of school...

Kayla: One.

Laura: Is not, not to minimize what you went through, is not that big a deal, though.

Kayla: Right.

Laura: What sparked you to go get evaluated in those weeks before going full remote?

Kayla: It was a combination of a couple of friends. And just like I think some media I had seen talking about like the things that they do and how they found out that that was ADHD. And I was just like, "Oh, I do those things." But I had a friend who we actually we dated for a while and then we realized we were better friends and we're still friends now. We're, really great friends. He'd come over and observe me, not, I say that, it was like, not clinically, but just, he has a lot of experience with trying to navigate his own ADHD.

And so, there were things that he would notice about me, and then he'd point out like, the way that I go on tangents, or, and how I tell a story and how I can't tell a story down a straight path. We are going to go down some side streets before we finally get to our final destination. And that's fine. They're all very whimsical and fun side streets. But I realize also, like, I've gone on several tangents on this interview already.

Laura: Hey, I'm here to keep you on track, so that's OK. So, he noticed something in you.

Kayla: He noticed a lot of things and he was just like, "Maybe you should bring up to your doctor ADHD." Whatever psychiatrist I was saying at the time, I brought it up to her, and so we did a short evaluation and she diagnosed me with ADHD.

Laura: Then you go remote and the word that you used with me and our pre-interview was upheaval. Tell me about the upheaval.

Kayla: So, having to physically go to class every day gave me a sense of routine. I am definitely a homebody type of person. I also have a lot of social anxiety, so I really like being in my house and in my space. But especially after going remote, I recognized how badly I needed the routine of having to, you know, get up in the morning, get on the train, get to school, you know, maybe have breakfast before I get on the train or maybe have breakfast at school. But at least I know I'm going to eat something because I know I have class and I need to make sure I can, you know, stay awake.

So, there is this huge, like, upheaval to just me being able to have a sense of routine. And I was pretty involved in school, so I was like part of like our Black Law Student Association and part of why I wanted to get involved is because I didn't want to be isolated in the way that law school can kind of already isolate you. And by that, I just mean just like the way that the grading systems and stuff are set up. There's this kind of almost natural atmosphere of competition with all of your peers.

And so, I didn't want to fall into that because I'm just somebody who likes to find community where I can. But I didn't get as close with as many people as I would have liked to. I think in like the year or so time that we had before we went remote. And I feel like a phenomenon that happened with the pandemic was just like the complete severance of acquaintanceships or like budding friendships. I feel like I had a lot of friendships that if I had another year in person with them, I'd still be talking to them now.

But because we went remote and we kind of lost that in-person connection, it became "I'm maintaining only what I really can focus on is like right in front of my face."

(06:53) Kayla’s childhood behavior

Laura: But we know that you got good grades throughout school, except for that pre-calculus C, which we're not going to hold that against you. There's something that happened that, just based on the last time we talked, it has stuck with you throughout your life. And it sounds like it's kind of a cornerstone of your ADHD experience as well.

Kayla: So, in the first grade, we have said reading time. Can you pick a book, any book in the classroom, and go sit anywhere in the classroom and read? So, I put it in my head that we were playing a game. I decided that I was playing a game of hide and seek with my teacher, except she didn't know we were playing hide and seek. And the book that I wanted to read was in front of the classroom door.

But in order to get to the book, I had to cross in front of the teacher's desk. And I'm just like, "OK, well, if I'm playing hide and seek and she can't see me, but I need to go get that book because I've read all the other books. I'm going have to crawl across the floor so that she won't see me and I can get the book and I can come back. And if she doesn't see me, I win.

Laura: Sneaky.

Kayla: Of course, she saw me. It's not a huge classroom.

Laura: You are a child crawling around the classroom. Right.

Kayla: I'm a child. I am crawling around. So, she sees me, of course. And she's like, "Get up. Get up off the floor. Don't crawl on the floor. Don't do that." And so, I'm like, "Oh no, OK. So, let's, OK, if I take another route, then she won't see me.

Laura: You went again. You did it again.

Kayla: So, I did it again. And I got in trouble. But then I'd do it again, and so now she has to call my mom. And my mom is, you know, very upset because my teacher has told me to stop doing something and I'm not listening, which is not how she's raised me. And now she has been called while she's at her job, working very hard. So, yeah, so I got in a lot of trouble. But I think there was also a layer that my mom kind of told me about later on.

There is this aspect of it from my teacher. She was a Black woman, but I think she really just like saw something in me and she wanted to, you know, nurture that and grow that and wanted to look out for me also because I was going to a mostly white school. And she was just like, "I don't want this Black girl crawling around on the floor like a dog. So, I need her to get up off the floor and she won't, she keeps doing it."

You know, to my mom, and my mom explained to me later, like "You, we don't want you to be perceived a certain way. And crawling on the floor is not part of the ideal perception. So that's why you got in so much trouble for that." And so, then it's like, oh OK, well, I, at the time when I got in trouble for it, I just understood it as I was being disobedient. And then as I got older, I understood as I was being disobedient and not doing myself any justice in a world that already doesn't want to. So, I really have to be on my P's and Q's when I'm in public.

Laura: Yeah, it's so much pressure.

Kayla: Yeah.

(09:45) The pressure to mask ADHD as a Black woman

Laura: I mean, you were in first grade, but then it's clear like that pressure persists and it stays with you. As a Black woman with ADHD, do you feel pressure to be like hyper-vigilant about your ADHD-related behaviors?

Kayla: Yeah, definitely. I think after that I wasn't hyperactive, at least anymore, like in class. I really didn't want to draw that kind of attention to myself.

Laura: How did you manage that, by the way? Because that's not something that's like typically that like, kids can manage. Right? So, I'm wondering, like, is that the pressure that you were feeling?

Kayla: Yeah, I think it was just like, it was a cultural and a neurotypical masking. But I think at the time I really only understood it as a cultural masking. So, I didn't want to draw attention to myself in a way that got me in trouble. And also with my mom, who was just always like very supportive of, you know, my schooling and making sure that I had what I needed, and but like with my mom, I also, I watched her work very hard.

And so, I think I felt this pressure, not so much that she put on me, but that I think I like put on myself. I can't do things that make life difficult for Mom because she's already working hard. But I also think what happened is I, it just, it started manifesting in other ways. So instead of...

Laura: Tell me.

Kayla: Being hyperactive, I started — especially as I got older — my notes in class weren't notes anymore, I just straight up started writing fictional stories during class.

Laura: I was like channeling in a different direction, almost channeling to inattentive, it sounds like.

Kayla: Yeah. It's like, it's almost like I channeled into the inattentive so but in a way that did it make my teachers think I wasn't paying attention.

Laura: Right, or in a way that couldn't make your teachers say like people with ADHD, in general, are already, you know, they're sometimes can get vilified as being, you know, intentional.

Kayla: Yeah.

Laura: I imagine, and you've gone through this experience, especially for Black children and adults, like being talkative, you know, might be seen as...

Kayla: Disruptive. Yeah.

Laura: Disruptive or aggressive or something like that. It's just all this added pressure. It sounds like you really ingested that.

Kayla: Yeah. I think I bottled a lot of things. My need for stimulation, I channeled that into this very overactive imagination and I just , and so I just start writing stuff. So, I'm, you know, I'm taking notes by hand in like, notebooks, in composition books. Oh my goodness, the composition books that are filled with stories and not chemistry.

Laura: Yeah, I've got a box of those. For me, it's more like comparative literature classes. But yeah, I hear you.

Kayla: Yeah, and even the classes I love, like I love history. I went to, in undergrad I majored in history and international affairs. I just, I love stories. And history is all of these stories in one long story that's still going, and I just, and so...

Laura: So, you channeled it?

Kayla: Yeah. I was about to get on another tangent about something else, but I stopped myself.

Laura: I stopped you, Kayla. I stopped you.

Kayla: You saw my face.

Laura: I saw you. I'm trying to do it gently. I'm just trying to be respectful and gentle with it.

Kayla: Yeah, so I channeled it into, in class, I channeled it into writing stories instead of taking notes. And even then, I still would, I'd take enough notes so that I knew what I was doing and I could do my homework. And even then, a lot of my, like, homework time, I could get myself caught up on the material, myself on my own time the way I needed to. And then I'd pass the tests and I did well on the assignments.

And so, no one ever said like, "Hey, she's struggling. She needs to get tested," because as far as all my teachers were concerned, I raised my hand to answer questions, so I was participating. And I do, there's this weird thing where I can, like, mostly listen, but I'm writing my story. And so if something comes up that I think I can answer, then I'm like, "Oh, I'll participate." And then that way the teacher won't look at me for another ten minutes as to why I'm not participating.

Laura: Right. You get it in there, and you're like, "OK, I'm safe for the next ten to fifteen minutes."

Kayla: Exactly. So, a lot of that, like even through college.

(13:56) Covering up “mistakes” in the classroom

Laura: Would you ever cover up — and I going to use the word mistakes in quotes — cover up mistakes in unique ways?

Kayla: Oh yeah. There was this time that I, so in the fourth grade, we got these vocabulary packets and so we got them on Fridays, I think, and they were due on Wednesdays. And so, there was a week where I kept forgetting my vocabulary packet in my desk. So, then when Wednesday came around, it was due and I hadn't done it and I was trying that morning to like do it in my desk without my teacher noticing, and I think that I was doing other work. She noticed.

Laura: You think you have like an invisibility cloak when you're in the classrooms like you're crawling around and your teachers always see.

Kayla: Yes, I truly believe that my teachers will not notice anything I'm doing as long as I'm being quiet about it. That is not the case.

Laura: So, did you lie in that instance about the vocabulary work?

Kayla: I did because I just felt like, how can I forget? I don't have any responsibilities. How can I forget?

Laura: That makes perfect sense, Kayla.

Kayla: Yeah.

Laura: I mean, think about it. Like when I say lying, I mean lying can be a really heavy word. It sounds like there's malice associated with it, but it's so common for kids and even adults with ADHD. You know, especially for someone like you, I would imagine, Kayla, like you have so much self-awareness, almost like hypervigilance of yourself, right?

Kayla: Yeah.

Laura: Because you have to be.

Kayla: You know, I didn't want to get in trouble again. And I knew, like, with my mom, you know, like, not doing my schoolwork was a big thing.

(15:35) Kayla’s relationship with her mom

Laura: You sound like such a, like a dream when it comes to, like, as a parent, I think, oh my gosh, if my kids up end up being as responsible as Kayla, I would be the luckiest mom in the world. So, it's interesting to me that these things have stuck out to you. But I get it. Like I'm a perfectionist.

Kayla: I'm a perfectionist too.

Kayla: I want to do everything right, and I don't want anyone to notice. Yeah, I don't want anybody to notice that I may struggle with my ADHD or for any other reason. I'm also noticing, Kayla, that your memories of these things are so crisp and clear, and detailed, like that means something.

Kayla: Yes. Because a lot of things are very blurry and murky and just kind of like, "What did I do yesterday?" But there is something...

Laura: Totally. Yeah, where am I right now?

Kayla: I swear, if you asked me what I did last week, I don't...

Laura: Yeah. But that one time you quote "messed up" in first grade or fourth grade…

Kayla: Yeah. Mistakes, oh I remember mistakes.

Laura: That's saying a lot.

Kayla: Yeah, I do. And I think also that was like the last time I got in that much trouble when it came to, like, schoolwork. Like, I just, I don't know, I think from then I just really made sure, like, I brought my schoolwork home and then I did it, because I didn't want to get in that much trouble again. It was horrible.

Laura: You set a high bar for you, let me tell you.

Kayla: I set it really high, right? And I didn't want to get in trouble and I didn't want to make things hard on my mom.

Laura: That's really kind, just what you just said. That just sounds really, really kind and thoughtful.

Kayla: Thank you. Thanks. My mom is very kind and raised me, I think, to consider other people. But I think also I watched her struggle with a lot of things and work really hard. And so, I just kind of have instilled a lot of things from observing. And I think one of those things was a pressure that I put on myself. But a pressure to, you know, like I grew up with this dream of like, I want to buy my mom a house because she's awesome and she deserves a house and I still have that dream.

But yeah, I think I just kind of grew up not wanting to cause trouble for my mom as much as I could. I appreciate what you said about if I was a parent who had a child that thought like this, because my mom says that to me sometimes just about looks like other teenagers, you know, other things that she sees that she's like, "I'm glad you didn't do anything like that."

Because that's another thing. And I think for the longest time why I was like, "Well, I don't have ADHD. I don't, I'm not impulsive, I don't get in trouble." And that's, you know, the portrayal of people like especially in media and stuff like, you know, like, "Oh, this person, you know, they ended up getting tested ot they got help because they were getting in all this trouble. They were impulsive. They were lashing out at people. They were doing all this stuff." And I think I didn't present those things. I've never been in any real, like, serious trouble. I never, ever broken a bone. You know, like I…

Laura: Well, it sounds like you developed an awareness really early on through some experiences that maybe kept you from getting into trouble because you were so almost strict with yourself for understandable reasons.

Kayla: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

Laura: Does your mom know that you have ADHD? Did you tell her?

Kayla: Yeah, we talk about it a lot.

Laura: What does your mom say about it?

Kayla: I encourage her to get tested. So, the more that I've learned and I've learned, you know how it can run in families, how it can be genetic. And then just like all these things that I've reflected on about my childhood and my upbringing and things that my mom, you know, has struggled with, that I'm just like, "I think that was ADHD. Yeah, I think that's why you do certain things. That's why you react a certain way sometimes to things."

Like, I have really strong, I guess, severe, I guess, like rejection, sensitivity dysphoria. And for the longest time, I would wonder, like, I feel like I'm such a crybaby. Like I just, I cry at things. If I feel like, you know, I get a bad grade, it just feels like the end of the world. It's horrible. I have done a horrible thing. And then when I got diagnosed and I found out about RSD, I'm just like, "Oh my gosh, I'm not, well, I am, I am a crybaby, but that's OK. There's a reason."

And with my mom, she doesn't cry, but she like hers more manifest, I think was like irritability. And so, there are things that I kind of look back on and I'm just like "The way I react to things and the way that you react to things, it manifests slightly differently, but they're very similar still." And I think with her it was also, you know, undiagnosed untreated because she also did well in school. There's things she tells me about like her childhood and her upbringing and like the kind of trouble that she would get into and like things she got involved in and and stuff like that. And I'm just like, "Mom..."

Laura: Yeah.

(20:11) Cultural masking, and the intersection of ADHD and race

Kayla: I think there's also a level of that cultural masking, and it makes me just wonder, just on a larger scale, like, I wonder how prevalent neurodivergence is in Black communities, in minority communities. We're already underserved by the medical community, and then we're under-diagnosed, you know, on top of that.

Years ago, I remember there are some story I think that came out about, you know, studies show that kids who went to school during like the 80s and 90s might have been undiagnosed at like this percentage or something like that. And I remember that like going around and my mom saying like, "You know what? We have a cousin who was so hyperactive and always got in trouble. I swear he probably has ADHD and was just never diagnosed because why would we have done that? Instead, it was just like, he needs discipline in order to be able to act right in public."

Laura: And we also know that like some kids of color, like rather than getting diagnosed with ADHD, they'll get diagnosed with oppositional defiance disorder.

Kayla: Right.

Laura: It's like a different perception of the symptoms, right? That is very racially motivated, frankly.

Kayla: Yeah. Or even like bipolar or just like, or schizophrenia or just like some, like, really, you know, stuff that is like that is not what that is.

But I think the way that ADHD and neurodivergence presents and manifests in people of color and I think maybe in Black people, I don't know, I feel like that's something that to be studied to help with like diagnoses and to help us navigate our experiences with, you know, "Am I masking right now in order to fit in to a like a cultural thing that I feel like I need to conform to for, you know, safety? Or am I conforming in a neurotypical way because everybody else around me is acting a certain way so we make sure I do that too?

There's a little of that to be explored, especially in the Black community and how we navigate our experiences as black people in America with the social and historical, you know, situations and experiences that we have and are living through, and then also making sure that we understand our neurodivergence and what it looks like and how it looks different from the neurodivergence we see in media or that we even see in studies. Because most of the time that neurodivergence is on a white person and that looks different.

Laura: And typically a boy or a man and as well, yeah.

Kayla: Yeah, and typically a boy, right?

Laura: I completely agree with you, Kayla. I mean, the need for research is, it's, just there's just such a huge need for more research, you know, intersectional research. That's something that, you know, we're trying to push for at Understood as well. And I'm grateful to you today for being here to share your story and for helping to shed light on this.

Kayla: Yeah. Thank you so much for responding and asking me to be on the show and share my experience. I'm really excited and I'm really grateful for the opportunity.

Laura: It's been lovely. It's been great to get to know you.

Kayla: Yeah, thank you so much, and thanks for dealing with all my tangents.

Laura: Thanks for listening. As always, if you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDaha@understood.org. I'd love to hear from you. Be sure to check out the show notes for this episode. We have more resources and links to anything we mentioned.

This show is brought to you by Understood.org. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences like ADHD and dyslexia. If you want to help us continue this work, donate at Understood.org/give. "ADHD Aha!" is produced and edited by Jessamine Molli. Jessamine, are you there?

Jessamine: Hi everyone. I'm still here.

Laura: And Margie DeSantis.

Margie: Hey, hey.

Laura: Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. Ilana Millner is our supervising producer. Briana Berry is our production director. Neil Drumming is our editorial director. Creative and production leadership from Scott Cocchiere and Seth Melnick. And I'm your host, Laura Key. Thanks so much for listening.