ADHD in marriage: How it changed a relationship (Breon and Dan’s story)

Breon and Dan Gummel are a mixed-neurodiversity married couple. After about 5 years of marriage, Breon was diagnosed with ADHD. The conflicts they’d been having as a couple took on a new shape. The more they learned about ADHD, the better they understood each other.

Now, they’ve founded an ADHD community called ADHDinner. This is where people with ADHD, and their close ones, can come together for a meal and share their experiences. You can create your own wherever you live with their free ADHDinner guide.

Related resources

• adhdinner.org

• ADHD and marriage (Rachel and Jon’s  story)

• Driven to Distraction by Edward Hallowell and John Ratey

• The ADHD Effect on Marriage by Melissa Orlov

Episode transcript

Dan: We were at a party, a friend's birthday party, and he had just gotten diagnosed with ADHD. He was telling Breon and I that his brain feels like the Panama Canal, and all the ships are trying to get through like the same little canal at the same time, and he doesn't know which thought to pick and like what to do. And Breon gets this, like very emotional reaction where she's like, "Oh my God, that's exactly how I feel. Like somebody finally understands what I'm saying." 

Laura: This is "ADHD Aha!," a podcast where people share the moment when it finally clicked that they have ADHD. My name is Laura Key. I head up our editorial team here at Understood.org, and as someone who's had my own ADHD "aha" moment, I'll be your host. 

I'm here today not just with one wonderful person, but with two wonderful people. Very excited to welcome Breon and Dan Gummel. They are a married couple based in Portland. Breon is a trauma nurse and Dan is a media producer. Breon has ADHD and Dan does not. Welcome to both of you. I'm so excited to chat with you today. 

Breon: Thank you for having us. That was a cool introduction. Thank you. 

Dan: Yeah. 

Breon: We're happy to be here. 

Laura: You're such a cute couple. Can I say that? Is that allowed? 

Breon: That's always allowed. 

Dan: Yeah. Well, it's it's really all her doing. You know, she's the one who buys most of my clothes. 

Breon: Aww. 

Dan: Yeah, so. But thank you. That's a very nice compliment. 

Laura: We like to get started by talking about the ADHD diagnosis. And in this case, Breon, that would be your diagnosis. I'm wondering if you can share, when were you diagnosed and what was going on in your life at that time? 

Breon: We bought and moved into our first house in March of last year. And I just remember, like, I think it was the first time that I had experienced such stability in my life that I kind of had time for things that I never really paid attention to in my mental health to start popping up. And I thought actually that I had depression. 

I just remember like waking up and just being like traffic jam in my mind and just not knowing how to manage my time and like what to do with my day and almost catatonic, like, struggling to get out of bed. And I thought I was dealing with depression. And so, I started seeing my counselor. And then come August of last year, I got evaluated and diagnosed. And yeah, it's been a game-changer. It's like insane. I feel like I'm awake for the first time in my life. And I say that like all the time, and it's true all the time. 

Dan: So, we've been married for about, we just celebrated six years, actually, and she was diagnosed in August of last year. Yeah, a lot of things started to fall into place about some of the conflicts and issues that we were having, but also just some of the ways that she saw the world and experienced the world versus how I see it and experience it. And so, ever since then, we've been kind of on this pretty big deep dive into ADHD because it affects our day-to-day, our minute-to-minute. 

Laura: Breon, you were talking about the, I think the phrase you used was the traffic jam in my mind. It's a really apt description. Can you think of a specific example of something that happened where you were feeling this traffic jam and you felt maybe not believed? 

Breon: Yeah. There are many. 

Laura: I'm sorry Dan. This is a safe space.  

Breon: Yeah, no, totally. This one's actually recent. So, we were having a conversation and Dan was like "Oh it's in this part of town." And I was like "Here in Ohio or Oregon?" And he was like, "We drive through this town every single day." And he's like he could not believe. And he's like, you've even referenced it in conversations before. Like, you know, "Like when you drive from here to here, that's this town that I'm talking about."

And I was just like, "You just have no idea." I might see the name of that town when I put it in my GPS, and I'm on my way somewhere, but it's like in my peripheral view, and it's blurry and it's not the main focus. Like, I want to know what's the closest Walgreens to me, and I just hit start. 

And then like on the drive there, like I'm not paying attention to like, "Oh, OK, Walmart is on the left, and this is on the right, and this drive is five minutes from our house, and we're going through this town." Like, it's not like this series of thoughts that are in order. It's like, I am thinking about a million things on the way there, and my brain is, like, on autopilot in driving to my destination. So, I don't know if that kind of answers what you're saying, but. 

Laura: And a driving story with a traffic jam analogy. And so, I appreciate the consistency there. 

Dan: So, basically, this learning conversation/argument happened I think three nights ago because I'm thinking about switching gyms. 

Laura: So, this is post-diagnosis now? So this is...OK.

Dan: This has been like, I think Monday, there's a little town close to where we live called Gladstone. And she was like, "Is that, you know, Ohio?" which is where we're both from, or Oregon, where we live now. And I was like, "You drive through Gladstone like a couple times a week."

Then she says, "Well, let me just tell you all the things I'm thinking about when I'm driving. I'm thinking about, 'did I close the garage door? Oh, shoot. Maybe I should turn around, make sure I close the garage door. Oh, wait, I'm going to pass the dog park. Maybe I should have gotten our dog and we should have gone to the dog park while I was going on this errand. Oh, maybe when I'm back, you know. Oh, wait. Did I miss my turn? Oh, wait. What happened?'" you know. 

And she's going through all this. Whereas if I'm going through Gladstone, I'm just able to kind of be a little bit more aware of my surroundings. And I don't have the same executive functioning kind of order that she does. And so, I can just be like, "Yeah, I know Gladstone's ten minutes away and it's next to Oregon City." But yeah, it's conversations like that that we have a lot of time there, just kind of learning conversations. And you know, one thing is not right or wrong. It's just like how she processes driving versus how I process. 

Breon: It's tough to navigate because I always tell him I wish so much that I could just, like, lift my brain out of my head and like, you know, vice versa, that I can see how you think about things. And he's done a really good job of trying to remember, "Oh, like, her brain doesn't work the same way. It's not that she doesn't care about her surroundings, but it's that she has ADHD and this is how she sees the world." And so, trying to be humorous about it and laugh at it together, laugh at the ADHD together, and not laugh at me because it's not for lack of trying. It's a genuine disability. 

Laura: How did these conversations go before you had a name for your challenges? 

Breon: Not well. 

Laura: OK. 

Breon: Not well, yeah. Just because I didn't know. You don't know what you don't know. And I was, like, in the dark. And those were rough, rough days. I knew that we were different. And it often ended in, like, low self-esteem for me because I'm like, why am I not thinking about these things? Why can't I follow a succinct order of thoughts all the way through? 

And I think that before I had my diagnosis, I was really hard on Daniel because I was like thinking that maybe he is like either trying to be controlling, honestly, or just judgmental of me because I didn't see how my brain operated differently than the average brain. 

Dan: The conversations usually devolved into arguments very quickly, and they would be like multi-day, part one, part two, part three situations. And I think from my perspective, I oftentimes felt like because one thing Breon's always excelled at work like she is a trauma nurse. She has won awards before and she's like really good at her career. 

And so, I was feeling really unseen and like I was wondering, like, is she just being like vindictive towards me? Like, why can she do so well at work? But when it comes to like just having what I thought were like normal conversations or just like, how do you make a to-do list together? How do you like figure out how to budget or get plans for a vacation or whatever together? 

Those just were like these impossible tasks that also take into account like — and this is a lot in ADHD literature —but oftentimes when those things are experienced, like there starts like a parent-child dynamic where like Ivan is like the non-ADHD partner would sometimes like come in with this like authoritative like, "Well, look, since you can't get together, I'm just going to tell you what we're going to do." And you know, that just builds up like resentment. And just a lot of issues kind of spring out of that. 

Laura: It's gendered as well, I imagine. 

Dan: It's totally gendered. 

Laura: Yeah. 

Dan: It's gendered, and also in our case, like there's also a racial component and it becomes really complicated really quick. So, I think once the ADHD diagnosis came in, there are still those other components that we have to work through for sure, but the ADHD helps us at least have a lot more of a map to just kind of be like, "Oh, I can tell when she is been doing her routines that she's been working on with her therapist because it helps us, it helps me be able to process things with her and be able to, like, just have a much more kind of stable or kind of life that she's feels engaged in. And I feel also engaged and safe in."

Laura: Breon, when we were, when we did our pre-interview a few weeks ago, there was one thing that we were talking about that I remember I was like, relating to hard that I go through with my husband and that I used to go through more, but, you know, less so now that I'm being treated. But this idea of always feeling let down because I build things up in my head.

Dan: Oh, totally. 

Laura: And I'm like, "Well you didn't think about X, Y, and Z?" And, you know, "Are we having a birthday party or something like that?" Poor guy, he just planned like a very elaborate birthday party for me because he didn't want to let me down again. And then I was like, "But I thought we were just going to chill," you know? So, it's like, he's like, it feels like it can never do anything right, right? 

Dan: Yeah, totally.

Laura: Which I'm sure is a universal thing and not just an ADHD thing. But there is something about that buildup and like the mechanics of the mind that makes this kind of uniquely stressful when it comes to ADHD. I was wondering if you two could speak about that, maybe Breon, starting with you. 

Breon: The number one example that comes to my head is how we approach vacations. So, like planning a vacation, I would just never think about the practical day-to-day. And it wasn't because I didn't want to. It was because my brain is chasing dopamine and it's chasing norepinephrine. And so, the things that help those chemicals in the brain is things that, fun things, you know. So, I'm thinking like, "Oh, when we go to Japan, you know, we're just gonna be walking through the streets and there's gonna be cherry blossoms and like, what am I gonna wear?" 

And, like, you know, and a lot of that probably could just be like, being a girly girl and, like, you know, being excited about a trip too. But I think the difference is like a genuine disability to think about, like, what are the steps that it's going to take to get there, and what is it going to realistically look like? 

Like I would never picture the moments that we're sleeping. I would never picture the moments in the airport. I never picture the times when we're cooking in the Airbnb and making meals and creating this grandiose fantasy in my brain. And then being really let down and having arguments on vacation, which is the worst, because you're in a beautiful place. 

Laura: It's the worst, yeah.

Breon: It's the worst, it's the worst. 

Laura: And then you're like, "Oh my God, I'm wasting it." And then you go round and round and yeah. You think it's about planning, it comes from a trouble with planning or is it impulsivity, or is it, where does it stem from in terms of executive function for you?

Breon: Impulsivity for sure. Not only what I would like fantasize about all the great best parts of the trip, but I would expect Daniel to, like, buy the tickets right now. Like, you know, impulsively on impulse and go. And I'd just be like, "Well, you know, like, why can't you just get on the Japan train right now?" You know? I think impulsivity, I know impulsivity for me has been the most difficult and the most prevalent symptom for my ADHD. 

Laura: That's something you've noticed as well, Dan? 

Dan: Oh, totally. Yeah. I could share a lot of stories of that. I'm a professional media producer. I've been producing media for like a decade now, and I've worked on big, small medium projects all over. And so, I know what goes into a photo shoot, what goes into a video, what goes into a podcast. 

The influencer vlog, like Dan, the lifestyle, that whole industry, I think is extremely dangerous to people with ADHD because it creates this like perception that this could be your life, but you just don't have access to it and you could have access to it if you just followed this person's program or like, took the same trip that they did or whatever.

And I think that's really dangerous. I think that people who are content creators need to just be aware of who they're creating content for and exercise some restraint and some of those things because it creates a downstream effect. 

Breon: We've talked about this a lot. I have to be very careful and I think everyone should too. The brain is a sponge. That's an incredible organ. And you know, what you feed it is what you know, it'll soak it right up. But I think that especially for neurodivergents like myself, we have to be really careful what sort of content we are consuming because I just eat it up. Whatever that story, that fantasy, whatever they're trying to sell, I just, I buy it, I completely buy it. And then it affects my personality and it affects my marriage. 

Laura: I'm curious if you two had the same "aha" moment. So, Breon, I'd like to start with you. What would you say was your big "aha" moment? 

Breon: I know what was the start of my "aha"moment and so, I'll speak to that. But I will say that like I still struggle with like denial to this day, even though it's undeniable. But I still struggle with it. Like, "Am I really? Yes you are, girl." 

But the pivotal moment that led me to getting diagnosed was we were at a friend's party, and I was having a conversation with someone who was recently diagnosed, and I just related to what he was saying in a way that I usually don't relate to people in conversations because a lot of time I was not paying attention. And, but I related to this so heavy. And honestly, I wish I could say "I was reading a book and I was researching," though I was on TikTok. 

From that conversation, I got on TikTok and I went down the void, the TikTok void, and was relating to these videos. And I was like, "This is me." And just like getting really excited and finding community. And I was also in deep counseling because like I said, at that time, I thought that I was dealing with depression and I just knew something was wrong. And then after doing the TikTok research, I was like, "Do you think I should get an evaluation?" And he's like, "I've told you that like three times, but yes, I do." 

Laura: Oh really? Oh, good. Not good, but interesting. Yeah.

Breon: No, it was good. It truly, it truly was good. And so, I still have "aha" moments. I still have, because like I said at the beginning, like I feel like I'm awake for the very first time in my life. And so, every day for the last nine months has been an "aha" moment of just being like, "Oh my goodness, I feel like I was sleepwalking," because I have an inattentive type ADHD. 

And so like, you can be talking to me and your girl is just like glazed over the eyes, totally checked out, and it's affected my memory. And so, I feel like I'm experiencing, I feel like I'm experiencing things for the first time that I know I have done like hundreds of times before. 

Laura: What about you, Dan? 

Dan: For me, like where my "aha" moments came in — there was really two — one was when she, so she's a nurse, so she would get up at like 5:30 and has to be at work around 7:00 or 7:30. And so, oftentimes I'll get up with her and like help her get her stuff together and get out the door. And usually, it's like a frantic, mad dash to the door. So, I'll get up and like, go downstairs and, you know, get out some food for her and kind of help pack a bag. 

And one of the first weeks after she was diagnosed, she had gotten on a medication regimen and also been doing some meditation-type stuff. And she came down the stairs about like ten minutes early, like super calm. And I'm in there like making some food for her. And she's like, "I can make my own lunch." And I was like, "What?" And so, I just sat down at the kitchen table and just kind of watched her make her food. 

And it was super calm and like, just like opening up the fridge, you know, very like, "Oh, OK," you know. And she looks up about five minutes later and she's like, "All I'm thinking about right now is making my lunch." And I was like "Damn." 

Laura: Wow.

Dan: And so, she left the house, you know, like five minutes early. And, I was like, "Oh, wow. This is really cool." And then a similar thing happened right around that time, was we went out to lunch with some friends. Usually meals, and going out to eat for her it's like a very big thing because she really wants to figure out what is the absolute best thing that she can get on the menu and like, what is this restaurant known for and all the other. 

And it puts a lot of this pressure, I think, on myself and also on the food and the experience to live up to this kind of imaginary expectation thing that we were talking about earlier. 

And so, we're driving to this restaurant, we've never been there before, and Breon turns to me and she's like, "So, we're just going to go eat and then go home." Yeah, that's kind of what I have in mind. And she's like, "And you think I should just order whatever I want on the menu?" And I was like, "Yeah, I just think you should order whatever you want. Like, you don't need to try and figure out which review on Google is like the one that you want or whatever."

And we went in to the restaurant and we sat down and I could tell that she was just a lot more calm. She was a lot more just kind of present in the conversation. And then in the car back, she was like, "There wasn't this letdown of like, 'Oh my God, I totally should have gotten this instead of that,' or you know, that, you know, whatever." It was just kind of like we went out to lunch, in my mind, normally for the first time maybe ever. 

Laura: Breon, what's going through your mind? What are you feeling listening to Dan recount that experience? 

Breon:  It's just so true. It's so true. So, like I shared, at the time, I was I felt that I was dealing with depression, which, you know, just from being a nurse that I thought would make sense because I'd be like, "OK, well, maybe in the past, I know I haven't really dealt with depression, but I definitely can think of moments where I've experienced mania."

Because I think that the impulsivity of ADHD can, for some people like myself, mimic mania, where you kind of get this idea in your head and you just, you have these grandiose thoughts and you're just like, "We have to do it now. Right now. We have to act on this, you know, and like, we're going to go to lunch and it's going to be the sun's going to come out and I'm going to get the best meal, and we're gonna have the best conversations."

And just always seeking, like maximizing everything because those, again, those chemicals that are vital to the brain were depleted. And when they are supplied from medication or skill building, life just seemed and it seems right now today, it's just, it's it's really chill. Life is actually really chill. 

Laura: Yeah? Is that a good thing? I mean that sincerely like because sometimes, you know, there might be like a morning of the way things used to be, for better or for worse. Is it, does that feel good? 

Breon: You know what? That's so interesting you say that because I think at first, I was concerned about morning, that euphoric, vibrant life. But now I feel I'm not missing anything. I feel like my chemicals are balanced and therefore I'm balanced. And life is beautifully simple. 

Laura: Breon, I just have to notice, as an outsider, like you talked about like feeling simple and you're a trauma nurse. You must be an amazing trauma nurse, by the way, Dan already sung your praises, but do you just feel like you're on it when you're at work? 

Breon: I've spent so much time, like being like, "How do I keep doing this? And like, how do I get out?" Like, I can't see doing this forever. But then I have moments where I'm like, "What else would I be doing with myself, truly?" Because this job, it is so good for me. It keeps me on my toes. You know, emergencies pop up and you have to think, and that is my jam. 

And that is probably a lot of people with ADHD's jam, just like you don't have time to think. Like you, it's act, you know, and it's impulsive. And being able to dive deep into a personal connection or dive deep into like pathophysiology. And like outside of my career life, there's not a lot of time to do these grandiose deep dives into things. But in work, I can nerd out and I can go down that hole and it's only going to help my patient.

Laura: Right. It's got all the makings of ADHD, like really good for people with ADHD. There's urgency. Every day is novel. I imagine you're dealing with something different every single day. 

You are doing a lot of really healthy things as a couple, and it sounds like individually to learn about ADHD, to get involved, to support other people. Will you share some of what you've been doing? 

Breon: So, we are in like and marriage ADHD coaching. Shout out Susan. 

Laura: Yes, Susan, that is so cool. I mean, shout out Susan. Let's bring her on the show. 

Breon: And so, I think we have done like classical marriage counseling for the majority of our six years without results because it was not specific to the way that my brain works. And so, the difference with this ADHD coach is, it's mostly just skill building. And I remember one of the, we say this often, one of the most helpful things she said was like "Pills don't equal skills, but you can use the pills to build the skills." And that's so true. It's so true. 

And so, she gives just, the practicality of her therapy has been a game changer. I've read a couple of books, one being "Driven to Distraction" by Ed Hallowell, and then "The ADHD Effect On Marriage." That was another big moment "aha" for me. I was actually doing the Audible book of it, and it was talking about how you see ADHD in marriage, and I had never, in all of my personal ADHD and individual ADHD work, I didn't know how it affected marriage. 

And when she started to unravel that, and I was listening to that, I was like literally in the bathroom brushing my teeth, and I stopped and I started crying. And I sent it to Daniel right away because I was like, "This is us, and this is real. This is why we've struggled in this way in our marriage." And to the T, the ADHD effect on marriage is real and needs to be understood and talked about. For neurodiverse couples. 

Laura: You're also hosting dinners, aren't you? 

Dan: So yeah, we started hosting these dinners last year. We call them ADHD dinners, and it came out of basically Breon being diagnosed, and us kind of processing it together. And I felt like I needed some support, honestly, because she was having all these lightbulb moments and I'm just like, "Well, where does this leave me? And are we actually going to be able to make any changes or whatever?". 

So, we started having some friends over. It would just be structured evening conversations around ADHD. And basically the criteria to come over is you have to have ADHD or you have to be intimately connected with someone who does. So, it ended up becoming like a, it was a really valuable experience for Breon and I and for others, because you get to share your story in a way that other people can really relate to. 

And especially for me as a non-ADHD person, I can see Breon share her story and other people go, "Yeah, that's totally right." Or I can share my frustration, like, "Yeah, like we tried to do this and it didn't work." And then someone else like, "Yeah, this actually happened to me too." We found a lot of value in it and other people did too. So, we just made a free website. It's called ADHDinner.org, and you can just go in there and get a little brochure, a little download, and you can start hosting your own "ADHDinners." 

Laura:  So cool. Such a great idea. "ADHDinner" with one D. Well, one D for dinner, and ADHD, A-D-H-D-I-N-N-E-R.org. 

Dan: Yeah. That's right. 

Breon: Exactly. 

Laura: OK. 

Dan: I just think that the best kind of change happens in community, and it happens typically in a very thoughtful, relationally secure environment. And a lot of times that happens around the dinner table, around a meal. And so if you're able to open up and share with others about a specific topic and you feel safe and seen in that, then I think that that's the foundation for really creating positive change. 

Laura: Such a great idea. 

Breon: There's something just so healing in just sharing your experience with people who have experienced similar things and feeling seen, and that they don't have to be a professional counselor. They don't have to say a specific thing to fix it, just listening and sharing. There's something so healing in that. I think we've always, just getting together with community and being transparent has always been a value for us as a couple. 

Laura: I'm just so grateful that you were both open to coming on today, but it's a lot to ask a couple to come on and share their stories candidly, and that takes confidence and I hope, security. That's what I'm reading from the two of you. You seem like such a really strong, communicative couple. Dan thank you. Breon, — no offense to you, Dan — but Breon is special. Thanks to you. 

Breon: Thank you. 

Laura: It's hard to share if I wish one thing for you, I wish that you don't have a vulnerability hangover over after this and you can celebrate. And you can celebrate with a simple lunch that's just a lunch. 

Breon: Yes, yeah. I really appreciate you saying that. And I really appreciate your time and the space for me to share for the first time. It feels really, really good. 

Laura: My pleasure. ADHDinner.org, check it out, everybody. 

Dan: Thank you, Laura. 

Breon: Thank you. 

Laura: Thanks for listening. As always, if you want to share your own "aha" moment, email us at ADHDAha@understood.org. I'd love to hear from you. 

Be sure to check out the show notes for this episode. We have more resources and links to anything we mentioned. This show is brought to you by Understood.org. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences like ADHD and dyslexia. And if you like what you hear, help us continue this work by donating at Understood.org/donate. 

"ADHD Aha!" is produced and edited by Jessamine Molli. Jessamine, are you there?

Jessamine: Hi everyone! I'm still here. 

Laura: And Margie DeSantis. 

Margie: Hey, hey. 

Laura: Our theme music was written by Justin D. Right, who also mixes the show. Ilana Millner is our supervising producer. Briana Berry is our production director. Neil Drumming is our editorial director. Creative and production leadership from Scott Cocchiere and Seth Melnick. And I'm your host, Laura Key. Thanks so much for listening.