Signs of dyscalculia and other tips from a math expert

What is dyscalculia? How can parents spot it? And is it anything like dyslexia?

Find out about all of this and more from Brendan Hodnett. Brendan is a middle school special education and math teacher. He is also an adjunct professor at Hunter College in New York City, where he offers courses on inclusive ways to teach math.

Tune in to learn more about early signs of dyscalculia, how it affects kids inside and outside the classroom, and tips that can help.

We love hearing from our listeners. Email us at init@understood.org.

Related resources

• 10 surprising ways dyscalculia impacts kids

• Signs of dyscalculia at different ages

• Dyscalculia and managing money

• Listen: Math anxiety, dyscalculia, and other reasons math can be hard for kids

• Listen: What if the teacher has learning differences too?

Timestamps

(1:04) How to pronounce dyscalculia

(1:38) How dyscalculia relates to dyslexia

(2:48) How it affects a child’s concept of time and sense of direction

(4:34) Early signs 

(5:29) Exploring a diagnosis

(10:24) How dyscalculia shows up outside of math class

(13:48) Understanding money

Episode transcript

Gretchen: Hello and welcome to "In It," a podcast for families with kids who learn and think differently.

Rachel: Here you'll find advice, camaraderie, stories of successes and yes, sometimes failures from experts and from parents and caregivers like you.

Gretchen: I'm Gretchen Vierstra, a former classroom teacher and an editor here at Understood.org.

Rachel: And I'm Rachel Bozek, a writer, editor, and mom who has definitely been in it. Today we're getting the 411 on a somewhat misunderstood learning and thinking challenge: Dyscalculia.

Gretchen: What it is, what it isn't, and how we can recognize the signs and support our kids who have it.

Rachel: With us to parse all this is Brendan Hoddnett. Brendan is a middle school special education and math teacher.

Gretchen: He's also an adjunct professor at Hunter College in New York City, where he offers courses on inclusive ways to teach math. He's been a guest on "In It" before and we're so glad to have him with us today. So Brendan, welcome back to "In It."

Brendan: Thank you. It's so nice to be here again.

(1:04) How to pronounce dyscalculia

Rachel: It's great to have you back. So, let's start with the hardest question of all. And we kind of hear this all over the place. So, how do you pronounce what we're going to be talking about today? Dyscalculia or dyscalcula or something else?

Brendan: So, I have for a long time always said dyscalculia. And I do believe that is the proper way to pronounce it. I don't think it's really hard to kind of figure out when people do say it the other way, what it is that they're referring to. But as far as I'm aware, that the proper pronunciation is always been dyscalculia.

Rachel: OK.

(1:38) How dyscalculia relates to dyslexia

Gretchen: And what exactly is dyscalculia? Sometimes people say, "Oh it's like dyslexia, but for math." But that's not quite right, is it?

Brendan: It's not quite right. I think there's a lot of confusion when we say it that way. All right. So, there are some similarities between the two, and I think that's important. There are also a lot of people who have both. Dyslexia is much more commonly known and referred to, and there's a lot more research done on it. People tend to think that means more people out there have dyslexia than dyscalculia. That's also not necessarily true.

There are a lot of similarities in the sense of like how they can impact multiple areas at one time. But one's really talking about language, when we talk about dyslexia is a learning disability that affects language acquisition, whereas dyscalculia is specific to math, specific to numbers and quantities, things like that. Does that make sense?

Gretchen: It does make sense. And so, in addition to struggling with the concept of numbers and looking at numbers and being able to say like, "Oh that five equals five things," doesn't dyscalculia also affect sense of time?

(2:48) How it affects a child's concept of time and sense of direction

Brendan: It does. All right. So, an understanding of space and time can be impacted when you have dyscalculia. So, time management can be very tricky. Understanding how much time has passed or the expectation of how much time should pass. Especially because when we say something like, "Oh we're going to leave in fifteen minutes," that fifteen may not have the same weight or understanding for someone with dyscalculia as it would for someone who doesn't have it, right?

So, that connection or if even you know, how long is a minute and what does that feel like? Can something, have to be something that people need to relearn over and over again? You know, something that's important to remember with dyscalculia is that it's not just someone who struggles with, you know, applying math calculations.

You know, that's typically where we see at first, you know, "Oh they're having trouble remembering their math facts. They're having trouble performing long division." But it happens out, you know, typical activities that they go through on a daily basis. It can show up in like keeping score or tracking time or, you know, understanding that, you know, when mom says, "I want you down in five minutes," what that five minutes really needs. Things like that.

Gretchen: Yeah. And the other thing I've heard for kind of impacts on everyday life is sense of direction and left versus right. Is that true?

Brendan: Totally true. All right. And that's not just specific to people who struggle with dyscalculia. That can be seen somewhat across multiple learning disabilities. But definitely, if dyscalculia has been identified, there may be an issue with direction left and right direction following maps, understanding multi-step directions, things of that nature. Got it.

(4:34) Early signs

Rachel: So, what are some early signs that a child might have dyscalculia? Like what things can parents and teachers be looking out for?

Brendan: So, I think this is a really good question because I think what happens is most people believe it doesn't really kick in, let's say, until they're in elementary school and math starts, suddenly starts to get a little bit more challenging. But there are early warning signs, even as early as preschool, when we're starting to talk about things like, you know, basic counting, starting to follow patterns like organizing things like smallest to largest, that can be really challenging for someone who is born with dyscalculia.

Even matching numerical symbols to, you know, the number of objects like we had mentioned before. That's something that you would notice pretty early on, even before they started grade school.

Rachel: And at what point is it an OK time to get a diagnosis or look into that? And how does a parent do that?

(5:29) Exploring a diagnosis

Brendan: I think if you're noticing it as early as, you know, preschool age, when, you know, counting is being practiced all the time and there's songs and there's pictures and kids come home from preschool and they learn something new. And we're starting to see some concerns that the kids aren't getting past, you know, the fourth or fifth number consecutively without making mistakes. It's something to bring up to the teacher.

Like, are you noticing this at school? You know, is there a pattern here or is this just like a one-off situation? If there's multiple factors here that a parent had noticed, you know, not just like one particular thing like, "Oh they're starting to have trouble with simple addition once they get into first grade." If it's earlier than that, it's always worth asking, you know, school staff for support. Are there next steps? Is there early intervention that could take place before this turns into something that, you know, we're too many grade levels behind or too many years behind in development?

So, I don't think it ever hurts to ask early. I think it's much more likely to be picked up around, you know, somewhere between kindergarten and third grade. All right.

Rachel: OK.

Brendan: And that's why you often see people say, "Oh you know, you won't even know about it until grade school." It's not really true, but it's often times where someone might start to get a little bit more nervous. That typically is when you start to see that peer-to-peer comparison. That's where testing starts to come into play and you start to notice, "Oh wait, there's a gap here." All right.

So, if you're noticing it with your child at home, it would be worth noting, you know, at preschool level or even by kindergarten to say, "Hey, maybe there's some early intervention strategies we can get involved in."

Rachel: Yeah, that's really helpful. So, with a little, little kid, you know, if we're talking about preschool, would a way you know, if you have a sense that something is amiss, right, and maybe this is what we're looking at, would it be like you can ask the child, like, "Go get me three apples" and then see if they can get you three apples? You know, just looking for, you know, kind of a concrete example where we can offer, you know, for some, for a child who isn't up to the point of like kindergarten to third grade.

Brendan: Sure. So, I think it's something that it's difficult to recreate. Like that type of like formative assessment is difficult to recreate because there's too many skills involved, right? So, asking someone to go grab three apples, there's so many other things involved besides just knowing what the number three means.

Rachel: Where are the apples?

Brendan: So, there's following directions, where are they? how do I get them?

Rachel: We don't have any apples.

Brendan: Did I lose, you know, did I lose my attention on my way to get the apples because something got me? So, it's like this is a good example to bring up because these are all the things we do as teachers as well. Is like is math the issue? Is there some other part that's the issue? So, there's a lot of things to think about.

But I think regular play, regular play, whether we're talking about with games and physical objects, things that we're asking like, "OK, you know, it's your turn to go, why don't you take three cards" like if you're playing a game of Uno, which is pretty common, right? Or even saying like, "We need to match number to number." Is that not happening? Like we see kids putting out two when it's a four and they're not understanding why it's not matching.

I think those are some pretty early indicators of things that, "OK, you know, this didn't just happen tonight, but this seems to happen every time we play. Maybe I should be asking, let's say his preschool teacher, if they're noticing the same thing."

Gretchen: OK, so let's say a child does have dyscalculia. How does it tend to impact them in school academically?

Brendan: So, where you would really start to see it impact them at the school level is probably in that first to second grade where they're sort of required to memorize their basic math facts so that they can take those facts and move that to the next level. All right. So, when they start to learn their addition and subtraction facts and kids are using flashcards and they're just, you know, fluently, just like repeating the answers over and over again, and you start to see that a child is not able to do that, right?

Or they're like, "OK, you know, I'm getting the answers, but I'm constantly using my fingers whether I'm counting up or counting down to solve that problem." Those kids are typically going to continue to use those strategies when their peers have moved on and their peers have been able to memorize them and say, "OK, let's take this to the next level."

That's going to impact them, not necessarily because they're not able to do the math, but it's going to slow them down. And then if it continues to slow them down, they're spending so much mental energy just solving that first problem, once we get into things that are multiple steps like solving word problems or, you know, solving multi-digit problems, that's where they're going to really begin to struggle because they're so stuck on step one where everyone else has got to step one and are able to apply it to step two.

(10:24) How dyscalculia shows up outside of math class

Gretchen: Got it. And then what about outside of math class? Is dyscalculia going to impact them in any other subjects?

Brendan: I have seen it impact students because it typically co-exists with other issues, attention issues, you know, working memory issues that comes from dyscalculia as well that can impact them. It can impact them on a day-to-day basis, you know, in terms of like moving from one subject to another, staying organized, you know, navigating how much time something should take.

But in terms of like a true issue with numbers sense, you know, having that ability to take, you know, what numbers mean and apply it in other situations, it has less of an impact than, let's say, someone with dyslexia would have across multiple subjects.

Gretchen: I suppose maybe like in science class, if you're doing a lab experiment and there's calculations involved, then the math would come in and then there might be a struggle with dyscalculia.

Brendan: Absolutely. Like science, social studies, when graphs are involved, when numbers are involved. But there tends to be, as kids get a little bit older, there tends to be less of an issue with kids relying on like additional supports for those types of things, right? And saying like, "OK, I can get through all the reading. Those numbers part of it, like I can rely on a calculator to kind of focus on those things and I don't have to worry about the math."

I think when that stress level goes down and their ability to say like, "I don't have to do any calculations here," the increase in their ability to learn and retain that information is much better.

Rachel: So, what about the impact of dyscalculia when you're outside of school, at home, or just like in life? What might a kid with dyscalculia struggle with day to day?

Brendan: You know, we kind of referenced it a little bit before, but I think when you're younger, some of the things that you're going to struggle with, that maybe your friends or your parents might notice are like when you're playing games and keeping track of school or keeping track of time following directional cues like right and left.

As you get a little bit older and like money becomes, you know, something that you're, you know, is a little bit more important to you and a little bit more meaningful to you, that can get very frustrating to have to do some of those mental calculations on the fly to have that understanding of how much money you need versus how much money you're going to spend.

As they get even older, budgeting is certainly a concern. If it's not something that was supported as they, you know, as they were going through education and I'm talking like past the basic calculations. I'm saying understanding what 40% of something means and like, are you close? Is your answer close? Why? What does that means left and why is that important? We're talking about investments. You know, how much growth should you expect to see? Is 8% growth as good as 12% growth? And over how much time? Like this, so much... I can already tell, I'm like people like, I don't want to talk about that.

Gretchen: You lost me at investments.

Brendan: But I fully understand that, you know, there's a difference between feeling anxious when that stuff comes up because like, "Oh it's not my favorite thing to talk about" and saying, "I really don't understand it and now I'm going to withdraw myself from it." And that can impact, you know, someone's ability to, you know, be successful in life or, you know, the amount of money that's necessary to support their family, things like that.

(13:48) Understanding money

Gretchen: Something I've noticed with my teenagers and just thinking of like math out in the world, right, is they never use cash. Like they are all about carrying their phone and paying for everything with Apple Pay or just like a digital wallet. And I wonder for kids with dyscalculia for one, this probably takes away a lot of the anxiety, right? Of being out with friends and I don't have to worry about, "Oh my God, I'm I counting my money incorrectly? Because it's just "ding," it's happening.

But at the same time, is there something about having physical money that may have helped kids with dyscalculia understand the concept better?

Brendan: Well, I think that's a good point, right? So, when you're tangibly holding on to something and you're paying for it and then you get something different in return, that can be very beneficial. The problem is specifically with money, right? So, if I were to hold up a $1 bill and a $5 bill, they look almost exactly the same except for the number that's on it, right?

So, handing a five and getting back three ones that are the exact same size, same shape and everything doesn't necessarily represent like the numerical concept we want them to get out of it. That's why money can be so complicated. Or, you know, forget it, when you take dollar bills and then you get change back. And those are totally different shapes and have different values and are different sizes.

So, that's a whole other level of teaching and an understanding that kids have to go through. And we have them go through it at such a young age when kids with dyscalculia may not be developmentally ready for that information. And then we've moved on, right?

So, that's where something like, you know, intervention and repetition and continued instruction on things that we find to be the most important things for them to learn would be valuable, you know, in terms of their education, in terms of a way to intervene with a student who struggles with dyscalculia.

So, to your point, right, the world is changing. Is money and focusing on like the value of coins and dollars and the differences, and is that as important now as it once was? But I think you were, you know, maybe you were alluding to the point that if something's tangible and in your hands, like, is it easier to understand?

And when we talk about kids with dyscalculia, we do teach them with concrete objects and materials and like so I get why you would want to put something in their hands and say, "Look, this will be a little bit easier to understand."

Gretchen: I did ask about the money and the concrete objects because I was wondering about that because I want to know what kinds of academic supports are typically most helpful to kids with dyscalculia in school?

Brendan: So, number one is going to be let's get some, you know, different representation of just numbers and symbols, you know, in front of them. And that really begins with concrete objects and then, you know, visual imagery of what it is that we're teaching them. All right. So, there's an old acronym used in math education called CRA, Concrete, Representational, Abstract. And that's the order in which we try to teach it.

All kids get a version of this, you know, within curriculum. It's always kind of embedded in certain math curriculums. The difference is most of the time it's like concrete, meaning like, "Let's get your hands on for the opening activity because that's fun and engaging." And then, "OK, overall concept is taught, but we're going to move on to the practice in the abstract," with kids with dyscalculia, you want to stay in concrete till they've mastered concrete. You want to move on to representational.

So, like the imagery of it, all right. How do I represent, you know, 12 objects, take away five objects? How do I visually represent that until they master it visually? And then you move into the abstract? That takes a lot of time. So, it's that's where your small group, you know, one-to-one intervention would take place.

Rachel: So, when kids are home with their caregivers or parents, what are some ways that adults can help a child with dyscalculia and help them even work around some of the challenges? Like are there dyscalculia hacks?

Brendan: I wish that was true. I wish there were some hacks. So, here's the thing. I think it's important to recognize that when we talk about dyscalculia, it's not all kids with dyscalculia struggle with the same things. You struggle with the same issue. So, it really is dependent on the person, right? But in general, right, most people with dyscalculia struggle with memorizing their facts, right? And then following like multi-step math calculations.

Because it's really difficult for someone who struggles with working memory to do step one, hold on to that piece of information, and then use it again in step two, right? So, some of the hacks or some of the ways that we can support people who are struggling with it and trying to perform math calculations, calculator immediately. If that's not something, if the calculation itself is not the learning objective, if the problem-solving is the learning objective, why not use a calculator?

Another thing is just recognizing that people need time, right? We should expand the amount of time that's expected. You know, for a test to take. And we should also reduce the amount of that test, right? So, if I were a parent and saying, like, "We're going to work on this homework assignment or we're going to continue practicing math over the summer so that, you know, you can retain some of this," keep it short, but give them the space and time to do it.

Limit the frustration. Once that frustration level goes up, all that anxiety kicks in and forget dyscalculia. Now, anxiety has taken over and that's blocking our kids' abilities to complete the math.

Gretchen: All right, Brendan, so we've talked a lot today. Is there anything that we didn't cover about dyscalculia that you'd like to mention?

Brendan: I think for me, you know, one of the biggest, dyscalculia sounds so foreign. And it sounds like, you know, we were even talking about like, how do you, what's the proper way of saying that's kind of where we started our conversation because it's so not commonly discussed.

Gretchen: Yeah.

Brendan: Right? So, at any point, if there's a concern about it. Let's address it. Let's not be afraid to address it. Let's not be afraid to work intervention into the conversation because we're at a place now, we're starting to see intervention happening for many kids, kids without learning disabilities. Kids even without, you know, attention issues, they're just not getting high-quality math education. So, they're starting to show gaps. They're starting to show deficiencies.

So, those intervention polls get larger and larger, which means that kids who really, really need it for something like dyscalculia are going to get less intense services. So, the earlier you identify it, the earlier you ask for help, the better chances that your child or the student you're working with is going to build towards independence.

I think the other thing that I would just love to mention, and this is a question I just get all the time from parents is, the math curriculum that we get as teachers or the standards that the state set that we need to follow, they're not the be all and end all, right?

There are things within every school year that we have to be able to point to and say "These are the most important. They're the most important for life. They're the most important to help them with next year's math." Not all ten months are the most important things that they're going to need to learn. And if you need more time and space to learn it, well then let's weed out some of that extra stuff and really focus on what's most important. All right.

A good special education teacher will do that. But a general education teacher's job is to cover the curriculum while supporting the student's needs. They may be moving a little too fast and without someone to say, "Hey, I need you to slow down. My child needs something different," they may not know it. And I think that's an important message to get across.

Gretchen: So, are you saying that it's OK for a parent, for example, to talk to the teacher and be like, "Hey, like, I just want my kid to get these, the most important fundamental things out of math this year. And can you help them focus on that?

Brendan: So, if your child's already classified and already receiving special education services, your power is in the IEP, right? So, where you can establish what those learning goals are, it is required by law that that teacher has to hit on those learning goals and show progress on those learning goals. So, that's not necessarily the easiest thing for a parent to do, is to go through the standards and say, "Look, these are the things that I think are most important," and it's not really their job either.

Gretchen: Right.

Brendan: But at least they can bring that to the conversation and say, "You know, you as a teacher who's been doing this for ten, 15 years, you know what they're going to be learning next year, what are the most important things they need to learn?" Because the teacher writes the goals, the parent approves the goals, right? So, asking that question is a really valid question.

Gretchen: That's great advice. Thank you so much for this conversation.

Thank you. This was awesome.

Brendan: Thank you for having me. I always love talking to you, too.

Rachel: Thanks so much for listening today. If you have any thoughts about the episode, we'd love to hear from you. You can email us at init@understood.org.

Gretchen: And check out the show notes for this episode, where we have more resources and links to anything we mentioned.

Rachel: This show is brought to you by Understood.org. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences like ADHD and dyslexia. If you'd like to help us continue this work, donate at Understood.org.give.

Gretchen: "In It" is produced and edited by Julie Subrin, with additional production support from Cody Nelson and Ash Beecher. Justin D. Wright mixes the show and Mike Errico wrote our theme music. Briana Berry is our production director. Neil Drumming is our editorial director.

Rachel: From Understood.org, our executive directors are Laura Key, Scott Cocchiere, and Seth Melnick. Thanks for listening.

Gretchen: And thanks for always being "in it" with us.