Nonverbal learning disabilities in the national spotlight

Gus Walz is the son of vice presidential nominee Tim Walz. You may have seen him in the news, cheering for his dad at the Democratic National Convention in August. At that time, many of us learned that he has a nonverbal learning disability or NVLD.

In this episode of In It, hosts Gretchen Vierstra and Rachel Bozek talk with Dr. Andy Kahn. Andy is a psychologist, and he’s the associate director of Expertise and Strategic Design here at Understood. He also hosts the Understood podcast Parenting Behavior. Listen as Andy explains what it means to have an NVLD. He also talks about the relationship between NVLDs and ADHD. 

We love hearing from our listeners. Email us at init@understood.org.

Timestamps 

(2:16) Defining NVLD

(3:44) More details about NVLDs

(7:21) ADHD and NVLDs

(8:30) Neurodivergence in the news

Related resources

• What are nonverbal learning disabilities?

• Classroom accommodations for nonverbal learning disabilities

• Video: A young woman opens up about growing up with NVLD

Episode transcript

Gretchen: Hello and welcome to "In It," a podcast for families with kids who learn and think differently.

Rachel: Here you'll find advice, camaraderie, stories of successes and, yes, sometimes failures, from experts and from parents and caregivers like you.

Gretchen: I'm Gretchen Vierstra, a former classroom teacher and an editor here at Understood.org.

Rachel: And I'm Rachel Bozek, a writer, editor, and mom who has definitely been "in it." Today we're talking about Gus.

Gretchen: As in Gus Walz, son of Tim Walz, the Democratic nominee for vice president. But we're not really talking about Gus, right, Rachel?

Rachel: Right. We're actually talking about nonverbal learning disabilities, sometimes called disorders, and what it's like for families with neurodivergent kids when suddenly everyone's talking about a neurodivergent kid.

Gretchen: With us today to talk about all of this is our friend of the show, Andy Kahn.

Rachel: Andy is a licensed psychologist and the associate director of expertise and strategic design here at Understood. And we're so happy to have him back once again. Welcome back.

Andy: Thanks so much for having me.

Rachel: OK. So, before we dive in, we want to give a little context for anyone listening who missed this cultural moment. During the Democratic National Convention when Tim Walz was accepting the nomination, some news stations panned to his 17-year-old son, Gus, who was overcome with emotion. He was crying. He was cheering for his dad. He was just really excited. And you couldn't hear the words coming out of his mouth, but you could see he was going, "That's my dad!" It was it was a moment.

Gretchen: And this prompted a slew of commentary on social media and in the news, some supportive, some unkind about Gus. At that point, his family shared publicly that Gus has a nonverbal learning disorder, ADHD, and anxiety. And then there was even more commentary.

Rachel: Along with a fair amount of misunderstanding.

Gretchen: But we're not here to talk about Gus, who is, after all, just one kid kind of unwittingly thrust into the national spotlight. Instead, we want to use that moment as an opportunity to educate folks about what it means to have a nonverbal learning disability.

(2:16) Defining NVLD

Rachel: I think a lot of times when people hear that label, they assume it means that the child is nonverbal, like meaning that they don't speak, which is understandable because that is totally what it sounds like, but that's not what it actually means, right, Andy?

Andy: Right. So, and so much of the terminology here gets confusing. First, at the core here, nonverbal learning disability or non-verbal learning disorder isn't currently in the diagnostic manual. So, I want to emphasize that first. And no, it is not about being nonverbal. It is about how you process nonverbal information that results in people having difficulties and impairments in functioning.

So, it could be things as simple as challenges in recognizing patterns in what you see on paper, or understanding how shapes and items work together in a more sort of high level way. It can affect the way that you comprehend certain things and the way that you understand how things fit together, whether it's socially or understanding, let's say, a math concept.

So, as math concepts get more sort of complicated and you're having to have to understand how variables interact with one another, kids who would present with generally average intellect are going to look confused, as we see in a lot of sort of learning disorders that certain things just aren't processed in a way that makes sense to them and makes a lot of the day-to-day functioning more challenging. And yet there are more pieces here, but that's sort of the broad strokes.

(3:44) More details about NVLDs

Gretchen: So, it has nothing to do with speaking or reading.

Andy: So, not with speaking. With reading, we can break this out a little further. Certainly most folks with nonverbal learning disabilities are able to read and they can read fluidly. It's the comprehension of what they read and understanding and putting together themes and concepts that can be challenging.

Rachel: How common is it?

Andy: So, it's hard to put a statistic on it. Usually, we think in the neighborhood of about 3 to 4% of kids in the U.S. But again, keep in mind that it's not something that's technically being diagnosed because there's not a diagnostic manual entry for this. So, it's sort of an estimate of about 3 to 4%.

Rachel: So, if there is not a diagnosis, do or can kids with an NVLD qualify for an IEP?

Andy: So, technically speaking, that would not be the qualifying condition.

Rachel: So, there would have to be something else?

Andy: Correct. There would have to be something else. And very commonly there is, you know, because the areas of functioning, the areas in impairment tend to cluster together with other things, other learning disabilities or ADHD particularly.

Rachel: So, they may very well qualify for an IEP, but not specifically for that?

Andy: Correct. Very commonly in the past, we used to see young people who looked like they might be on the autism spectrum being called that they have nonverbal learning disability. And that might have actually been a preliminary thing that people noted. But commonly with autism spectrum, we see more of those very specific challenges in communication. We see some of those really more concretized deficit areas that don't often or don't always get shown in nonverbal learning disabilities.

So, there's some similarities there. That social awkwardness, the difficulties in looking at nuance and understanding how to behave in certain situations. So, when we see, for example, Gus Walz's behavior, pure, unadulterated joy, celebration, happiness that overflows his awareness of what is like, people are making the decision, "Are you showing good decorum? Are you showing socially appropriate behavior?"

Well, in that situation, I think most people who looked at that from a pure parent perspective, I saw that and I was brought to tears because I saw such unfettered joy. And you know what? It takes a certain kind of parent to support the joy in that relationship. So, what I saw was a part of the reciprocal relationship between that child and his parents. And for me, I saw that for a 17-year-old and thought, "That's pretty cool."

Rachel: I'm gonna cry now.

Like, that's a really cool thing, you know?

Gretchen: Yeah, yeah.

Andy: Yeah. It's hard not to fall in love with that when you see it sort of from that perspective, right?

Gretchen: Yeah.

Rachel: Yeah.

Andy: For me, this wasn't a political thing. This was a spotlight human moment with a parent and child expressing and seeing that level of love. And you know what? Culturally speaking, I think that we often speak to the idea that, "Oh, we should be more subdued, we should not show as much emotion" or "We shouldn't show certain things."

And I guess we have to ask ourselves, why is that? In what fashion is positive, loving emotion needing to be swept under the rug? And I guess in this situation, I sort of looked at that and said, wow, that's a shame that that's a source of criticism for people.

(7:21) ADHD and NVLDs

Gretchen: One more brass tacks question for you. Sure. Which, as you said, that nonverbal learning disability is often diagnosed alongside ADHD.

Andy: Correct.

Gretchen: So, are there similar symptoms? How, why is it that they're often diagnosed together?

Andy: They're definitely, you know, we think of a lot of these disorders and particularly learning and thinking differences as a general subtype, including things that tend to overlap. So, for example, in ADHD, we very commonly see executive function challenges, organizing, plan, structure, putting step-by-step activities in order. And this is something that overlaps significantly with nonverbal learning disabilities.

The idea that there's overlap in core areas of functioning, things like attention, social skills. You know, if you think about why social skills deficits are so common in ADHD, it's about the inability to sort of read the room. So, certainly ADHD has a ton of overlap. You know, again, these are all human behaviors and human experiences, but those wiring differences seem to overlap quite a bit.

(8:30) Neurodivergence in the news

Rachel: So, I want to switch gears, if that's OK and talk a little bit about the cultural moment during the DNC when all of a sudden everyone seemed to be talking about neurodivergent kids and I saw this happen like in real-time, like I sort of like went to social media, various places. And so, I'm curious to know for both of you what that looked like from where you sit and do you feel like it provoked some good conversations or some unhelpful conversations? Andy, how was that for you?

Andy: Well, so for me, you know, I am just a notorious optimist in this situation. Any time we can get a platform to talk about neurodiversity is a good thing because it's a dialog. Most of the time it's a monologue. Somebody is saying something unprovoked about someone else and it doesn't have a chance to get multiple voices and multiple audiences.

And I think in this situation, particularly because it was an expression of so much positive emotion, it allowed us to have a starting place to go really digging into this kid with this positive, happy emotion. You know, it's sort of you look at that and I think the typical person will go, "Yeah, that's really not cool."

And I think that for us to start the conversation about neurodiversity and to take the opportunity on such a large stage is something that I feel is really valuable. I feel for Gus, I feel for his family. But you know what? I can tell you by my observations of Gus in that situation, his family's been navigating this a long time.

Rachel: Yeah, right.

Andy: You know, they knew how to talk about it. They knew how to sort of contextualize "My kid's wiring is different. He lives in a somewhat different context at times." And then being able to step aside and say, you know, "Talk about that." And I think that was, I think that was overall handled pretty brilliantly. The other part of the conversation is about how do we navigate the negative, because that's what the stigmas are about.

Rachel: Yeah.

Andy: You know, if one person is saying, "You know what, I saw someone else like me," if you happen to be neurodivergent and there's Gus. That is always something that can give people a sense of connection to their world and the idea that they're not alone. So, I, you know, I really I want to take an opportunity to celebrate this, to bust stigmas, to call out the just the unkind behaviors for what they are and to talk about what we really saw.

And I think this is a huge sort of opportunity for that. And I'm really, you know, I'm pleased. I hope that the overall weight on that individual young person wasn't too great. But at the same time, we can talk about the big picture and be thankful that he was in that situation to give us something to talk about.

Rachel: Yeah. What about you, Gretchen?

Gretchen: Oh, I agree with Andy that I saw mostly positivity in all of this, right? And it's exciting for our kids to be able to see themselves in this national moment. It did make me think of how tough it is, though, to be a parent of a child with a learning and thinking difference in a public space, and to know that the way you talk about it is going to be picked apart.

Because even I appreciated how positive the statements from the family were. But then I saw some comments like kind of like, you know, picking apart the word choice, the use of superpower, for example, like. And it just made me have such empathy. It's just so difficult to be able to speak about your family in this case and have kind of all sides come out and decide, you know, is the language you're using the best language or not. And I was just happy that it was strength-based language, right? I was really pleased with that, so. But it just, it made me realize it's it's a tough position to be in.

Andy: Yeah. Gretchen, you brought up a great point. Like, what is this like for parents? You know, the idea that for parents to say "So, here's an example. Like when you have an answer, an uncle or a neighbor who doesn't get your kid because your kid just marches to the beat of their own drummer or maybe is a little bit young in their behavior compared to how old they are on their birth certificate."

"And being able to say, 'you know, this is just part of what humans are. This isn't about what's wrong with somebody. This is about the range of understanding humanity across the range of functioning.'" And I think that so much of that gets lost because everything's got to be pathologized.

What's wrong? What can't you do? You know what's "Oh my gosh, can you believe that person did this in that setting?" And this is about creating a sense of what is acceptable, what is typical, and how can we let the culture flex and absorb and welcome all folks. And that's really what this is about for me.

Gretchen: What about you, Rachel?

Rachel: Yeah. I mean, really, what both of you have said reflects how I was feeling when I saw that and that sort of like, explosion of of happiness that we just saw kind of like coming out of this kid. It was this sort of simultaneous like, OK, the first thing I thought of was like, That is so sweet, right? Like before when I was like, "I'm going to cry." And it is so genuine. And then I was, like, worried for him immediately, and their family.

And just like, how people respond to anybody crying, but, like, you know, this sort of young man crying and like, I had all of these concerns about that. And, but as far as the conversation about this, it was a great moment also for me to learn. I started like Googling like and that was sort of the moment of like, "We should talk to Andy about this."

Gretchen: Yeah.

Andy: Yeah. These are opportunities. And I think that the fact that how many people went out and said, What is that?

Gretchen: Yeah.

Rachel: Yeah.

Andy: What does that mean? To me, that's huge because we're opening up the consciousness. The best thing you can do as a person who wants to understand someone else is to be curious. I feel like I'm stealing from "Ted Lasso," you know? Be curious, not judgmental, right? That's one of the mantras there. And I know they haven't been able to assign who actually said that? They said it was Walt Whitman. But I've not been able to hunt the quote down.

But be curious, not judgmental. What a hugely important thing to bring to a situation like that. And I think it raised curiosity. And that is exciting to me.

Rachel: Yeah.

Andy: And that is cause for celebration.

Gretchen: I 100% agree. Well, is there anything else you want to add to this conversation, Andy, before we wrap up?

Andy: I think I'll just echo myself here. I think for me, the most important thing is that if you saw this moment or if you haven't, go out and look it up on YouTube, go check it out. And then use that curiosity to ask questions. Use that curiosity to have conversations with kids around you who are different than you and ask them questions. Get to know them.

Because unless you're curious and engaged, you're going to be stuck in whatever belief system you hold. And I would love for people to see the whole kid, to learn about them and to have an accepting open place for people with differences in our communities. So, that can only come from curiosity and conversation.

Gretchen: Thank you so much for that.

Rachel: Yes, thank you so much. This is such a great and interesting conversation.

Andy: Thanks so much for having me again, folks.

Rachel: Thanks so much for listening today. If you have any thoughts about the episode, we'd love to hear from you. You can email us at init@understood.org.

Gretchen: And check out the show notes for this episode, where we have more resources and links to anything we mentioned.

Rachel: This show is brought to you by Understood.org. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences like ADHD and dyslexia. Learn more at Understood.org.

Gretchen: "In It" is produced and edited by Julie Subrin, with additional production support from Cody Nelson and Ash Beecher. Justin D, Wright, mixes the show and Mike Errico wrote our theme music. Briana Berry is our production director. Neil Drumming is our editorial director.

Rachel: From Understood.org, our executive directors are Laura Key, Scott Cocchiere, and Seth Melnick. Thanks for listening.

Gretchen: And thanks for always being "in it" with us.