In on the joke with Emma Willmann

This week on the show, I’m hyperfocusing not on a topic or a question, but a person: the neurodivergent comedian and actor Emma Willmann. 

You might know Emma from her comedy (she’s done stand-up on The Late Show with Stephen Colbert) or her acting (she played “Beth” on Crazy Ex-Girlfriend). 

But I didn’t want to know about any of that. I wanted to spend some time with the person who has made a career out of smart, inclusive humor and understand how she does it. Plus, we talk about her ADHD and dyslexia diagnoses.

We love hearing from our listeners. Email us at hyperfocus@understood.org.

Related resources

• Emma’s website

• Emma on Instagram

• Listen: How to manage ADHD at work

• ADHD and creativity

Timestamps

(1:58) Breaking up with your phone

(5:39) Comparing and contrasting ADHD types

(9:53) If you could get rid of your ADHD, would you? 

(15:04) Is ADHD good for a stand-up comic?

Episode transcript

Emma: Now, I have ADD. Any of you guys have ADD? Oh nice. Awesome. And you know what? I bet there's more of us. They're just not paying attention.

I told my therapist I was having comedy writer's block, and she goes "I can help Emma. How about I tell you things from our sessions I think are funny?" I was like, "I didn't think anything from our sessions was funny."

Rae: Today on "Hyperfocus," instead of a question, we're hyperfocusing on a person. Comedian and actor Emma Willmann, to be specific. And Emma's pretty easy to focus on. She describes herself as a dyslexic, gender-wiggly comic with ADHD. She says stand up on The Late Show with Stephen Colbert. She played Beth in Crazy Ex-girlfriend, and she is unsurprisingly, very funny and very smart. And in her comedy, she talks about neurodivergence in a way that was new to me.

I don't know that much about stand-up comedy. It's not my thing. But when I have seen it, when people are talking about neurodivergent people, we're almost always the butt of the joke. Neurodivergence in comedy is often portrayed as something to be laughed at, not with. It's usually something that means you feel like you're on the outside looking in, not the other way around. In Emma's comedy, you always feel like you're on the inside with her, where you belong.

So, I wanted to have Emma on the show, not just because she's funny, but because she's vulnerable and because she's smart and because she's a person with ADHD and dyslexia who's carved out a career for herself in a very challenging space. Today on "Hyperfocus," my interview with the very funny, very cool Emma Willmann.

Well, I'm so glad to have you here, man. How was your, how was your morning?

(1:58) Breaking up with your phone

Emma: It was pretty good. I went to the gym and I was listening to this podcast I've been trying to do, I've been trying so hard recently to not get on social media first thing.

Rae: That's helpful. For sanity.

Emma: It is really...I've been reading this book called "How to Break Up with Your Phone," and I've just been reading little chunks of it, but in it, it talks about like the beginning chapters or her laying the foundation of all of the tips and tricks that companies have in order to really hack our dopamine systems. And just being more aware of it is just like like, there was one thing that was talking about with Instagram where they won't, they're like, I don't know if they still do it, but it's like they wouldn't give you all the likes right at once because you get more of a dopamine hit if you got a bunch of likes.

Rae: Oh that's so creepy.

Emma: Isn't that crazy? Things like that, and then just reading that, I was like, my God, like, I have to, I'm not equipped once I'm on the phone to get off of it. So, I've been trying really hard not to get on it right away. So, this morning I lost the battle. I was scrolling and I had to work on something. And then my friend called and I was like, "You saved me." Turned the phone off, and I went to the gym. So, I'm trying, I try to be like, really like, especially, you know, I don't, I think this is probably an ADHD thing.

I'm always trying to figure out what's an ADHD thing? What's not? Does it matter?

Rae: Yes.

Emma: Because the behavior I'm doing, how do we untangle it? Do I even, let's focus on, for me, the solution instead of, I always want to know where things come from, but if I spent too much time figuring out is it this? Is it that? OK, I'm doing it. So, if it's not serving me, how can I remedy it? But like if someone's talking about something, I'll go "Oh. I'll buy it." You know? So, I try to be quick to now like be like, OK, if they're selling something, I have to be a little bit more skeptical about it.

Rae: Yeah. So, a question for you, because I have ADHD and dyscalculia and you have ADHD and dyslexia, right?

Emma: Yes. Dyscalculia is, tell me about that. The math?

Rae: Math. Yeah, math. But also, like I can't tell left from right. And I can't do directions. Like if you were to be like, "Oh take a left there and go over here."

Emma: Totally.

Rae: Like, you know, for example, I lived in New York City my entire life. I could not tell you how to get to my house. Like I could tell you landmarks, but I couldn't get you directions.

Emma: Could you be like, "You go down Seventh Street and up Eighth Street?"

Rae: Yeah, I could be like "You walk up Eighth Street until you see the shoe store that used to be there, but it's not there anymore. And then you take a left at the people selling the books on the street. And then you, you know, like or I guess not take a left, but go towards the subway station. And if you do this, you can't." It's like they're very much like...

Emma: Got it.

Rae: The directions you would give in like a fantasy world where there are no actual cardinal directions of any kind.

Emma: Left and right is not on the table as part of the directions.

Rae: Not at all.

Emma: It's so interesting.

Rae: Yeah.

Emma: I can do left and right. Mine pops up more, I think with like processing stuff, definitely with spelling, handwriting, reading, that. And, but I do think it affects processing things more than I realized, which I always thought was more of an ADD thing. Dyslexia is a little bit more confusing to me because I, and I don't know if that's just like the nature of what dyslexia is, that it is more confusing or if it's less people have it so it's out there less.

I don't know, like it's not, there's no, with ADD, ADD kind of had like a, has had moments maybe still having one where it's like part of the, you know, not for hecklers and sometimes they mess up words, not the heckler, you know, where it's like someone's talking about...

Rae: Vernacular.

Emma: Vernacular. So, it's like part of the vernacular where it's like, "Oh I'm so ADD," people don't use that with dyslexia as much. And even though that is annoying when people do that, sure. But it also like gets ADD out there more in a way that dyslexia I haven't even, I've tried to read about it a little bit, but I just understand it much, much less. But that's what I have, ADD and dyslexia.

(5:39) Comparing and contrasting ADHD types

Rae: Gotcha. So, what is your ADHD like? Because like for me, I'm very inattentive. Like I have basically no hyperactive symptoms and I just am super, super disorganized and struggle to, like stay on task and on focus. And, you know, it's the kind of ADHD where you would like look at a room full of people and be like, "She seems fine."

Emma: Right.

Rae: Until it was like, "Oh you haven't turned in any work for six months. Like."

Emma: Do you, did it bother you when they changed it to, they officially changed the name to ADHD to have the hyperfocus on it? Do you feel like, "Hey, I don't relate to that for myself"?

Rae: I don't. But I also know that so many people have the combined type, so it was like hard for them to be in either box or like. I don't know. It's hard for me to relate to any kind of like, thing that comes from like a structured body of people being like, "This is what your brain is like." You know, like if it's like, if it's coming from the DSM, I'm kind of like, "All right."

Emma: Did you always feel that way or was it just when you started studying like, how individualized and unique the brain is?

Rae: I don't know.

Emma: It's tricky.

Rae: Yeah. Like, I don't, I feel like, I like, I'm, like, different than other people. I like the label because it helps me explain how I am.

Emma: For sure. Totally. I relate to that too. And then sometimes I felt like for me, at least, sometimes I would lean on it to, I would almost use it as an excuse for myself to then not try to.

Rae: Yes. Yes.

Emma: But it is, it's so nice when you say to like, my girlfriend's sister is, she's not, she's a, I always say she's a doctor, but she like works with a doctor. She's not a nurse. She does like knee surgery specifically. So say she's a doctor, for the sake of this. So, she's got, she went to med school of some type, and she's in the hospital doing the thing. So, she has really bad ADD. And I remember my girlfriend and her mom were always like talking about her sister, that she had really bad ADD, and I was like, "That's so interesting. I don't, I haven't seen that side of her. And she's a doctor. Like what?"

Rae: Yeah.

Emma: So, getting to spend more time around her, I was like, "Oh my God, this is so therapeutic to be around someone who does have ADD and is a doctor." And for her, she's like, she's like the hyperfocus, she's like, "I can hyperfocus with the adrenaline of being in the surgery." And she was like, "Then when I have to do admin stuff, I fall apart."

Rae: Yeah, that makes total sense.

Emma: It makes total sense. But it was so interesting, last Christmas we were like, we were supposed to go to like a friend's place for a dinner, whatever it was, the plan kept changing. Now, I didn't really have any skin in this game because it wasn't like my friends or family, so I was just kind of an assistant. So, it wasn't overwhelming me. But I saw her sister get overwhelmed and she just took a minute. She was like, "Wait, so we're doing this or we're doing that?" And they kept, it was very confusing."

So, I totally get why she did this. And she did this thing where she went...and right in the kitchen. And it's just such an interesting visual because she's like very beautiful. She's a doctor. She's like all this stuff. She just went: Ahhh! And made this like war cry and they were like, "What the hell?"

Rae: That's awesome.

Emma: And then she... yeah, she was, and it was like, "Oh my God," it was so nice to see someone do something that neurodivergent, like...

Rae: Yes.

Emma: I was like, "I get it. You're overwhelmed. They keep changing it on ya."

Rae: Yes.

Emma: I was like, because was like, "Are we staying in or are we going out?" Because she'd gotten in her pajamas too. So, she was like, "I'm in the staying in headspace, so what is it?" And it just felt so good. And I was like, "Oh that's an ADD thing." I was like…

Rae: Yeah.

Emma: When I get overwhelmed, I react in different ways too. But it was so nice to see someone that was like under the ADD umbrella, having this very neurodivergent reaction to something, and I appreciated the label in that time.

Rae: I find it so comforting to be in that situation because you're just like, I don't know, I feel like so much of life is compressing the things about you that you've been sort of like, trained to hate.

Emma: Sure.

Rae: Like, and that looks like thriving. Like that word gets thrown around a lot. Like, "Oh you're doing so well. I wouldn't even know you have ADD." And it's like, well, I don't know if that's a compliment or what.

Emma: Right.

Rae: You know, like that doesn't really feel that great...

Emma: Totally.

Rae: To be like, "You're doing so well. I don't even notice who you are."

Emma: Right. You're doing so well, but despite this, you're an idiot, even though I'm sure that's not how they mean it. But it is a, it's like a weird, it's a weird, it's tricky.

Rae: Yeah. Being complimented on being able to, like, conceal yourself is strange.

Emma: Right.

(9:53) If you could get rid of your ADHD, would you?

Rae: So, part of the reason that we wanted, I want to talk to you, though, is because all this stuff we're talking about, how ADHD, like, I don't know about you, but like for me, my ADHD tests every part of my life.

Emma: Sure.

Rae: Like, there's no pulling apart. Like, what's me and what's that? Like you said at the beginning, like.

Emma: Absolutely. I mean, it's interwoven in your like, synapses in your brain. So, how could it, how could it be a separate thing?

Rae: Yeah. But I've been thinking a lot, and this is like a thing I've wondered about for years, and I don't have a good answer for it. So, I'm going to see if you can sort of tell me. But like, has anybody ever asked, is like, if you could get rid of your ADHD, would you do it?

Emma: Yeah, that's a tough one. It's a really tough one because it's like, you know, it goes into a lot of too like as, like things develop where it's like maybe they'll be able to create something that could do that. Like they're it's like detected, the kid has ADD. Do you want to maybe have another version of like, there's like a lot of stuff that we're like eeking towards where could be my immediate response and I wish it was different was "Yeah, absolutely."

Rae: Mine too.

Emma: And I have to, like, it's tricky because I also always like to think of it like "Yeah, get it out. Let me optimize like, what do I need to do? But maybe, I don't know, maybe that would then change, if it changed the fabric of everything. But would that be bad?" I think, honestly, yeah, I would definitely. I'm so sick of losing everything. But also, I feel like there's like, you know, maybe if we didn't have ADD, maybe if weren't losing everything, it'd be something. There's always going to be something. So, it's like picking what it is that is your problem. I don't know. Is not, is a very, that'd be a real like luxury of a thing. But off the top, if they said they could just nip it out.

Rae: Yeah. If you wave a wand and then your brain is just different. ADHD gone, dyslexia gone, whatever it is. Like you're suddenly like neurotypical in the way that is part of you now.

Emma: I'd do a whole transplant transplant right now. Like, I mean, you don't have to twist my arm, you know what I'm saying? My girlfriend would be like, "Oh my God. Like, no, no." Like, you know, even if then someone is like, "Well, then that would mean Emma wouldn't, like, leave the doors, you know, leave things open or leave food out and then you'd get mice or whatever it is," because that's been a real, real problem.

Rae: Listen, if I had a dollar for every time somebody yelled at me for leaving something open or something out, I would be a rich lady.

Emma: And I also like to see everything I make. I put it out for a reason because then if I don't, then I forget about it. But you can't do that when you're living with someone. It's not fair.

Rae: Yeah.

Emma: So, you know, we have little, like, compromises and stuff, and it's great. She says that having her sister now living with me, it helps her understand her sister more, too. Just like seeing what is an ADD thing too, like losing stuff.

Rae: Yeah.

Emma: But, I really see that, she was like, "You're really not meaning to lose the key."

Rae: She's got context.

Emma: She's got context. Like, I use a tile, have you ever utilized those?

Rae: I've seen them. You know, here's my honest tile story, is I bought one and I lost it before I could use it.

Emma: Of course. Same. I've lost a million of them, but I have one of my keys now and that is quite helpful.

Rae: Yeah.

Emma: But I went through a phase where I put tiles on everything, and then if I was trying to find something and I couldn't find it, I'd be bringing all these tiles that would sound like a symphony going off in the house because I'm looking for something and it's like ping, ping, ping, ping ping, ping, ping. So, I had to scale it back and I just haven't found my keys and the luggage bag.

Rae: But like all that stuff, would you get rid of it or not? Question is like…

Emma: Yeah.

Rae: So, much of, I spent so much time trying to find strategies to make myself, not myself.

Emma: Amen. I feel like half of everything I do is just to balance out the other half of stuff that I do.

Rae: Yeah, exactly. Like you say, it's like everything else is like. It's like there's never a time where you're just like, "I'm just me."

Emma: But do you think everybody feels that way? People without ADD too? I don't know.

Rae: I don't know. That's a good...that's part of this whole thing is like, at some point you're like, "How would you even know what's just who you are and what's..."

Emma: Right.

Rae: And it's another reason I like the label because I can be like, "Oh these are symptoms."

Emma: Sure.

Rae: Like I can put a label on something and be like...

Emma: Yes.

Rae: All right, so I'm not just like a completely useless person. This happened because I have this difference in my brain, but at the same time I get like, I don't know, I used to kind of like, just try to fantasize about what it would be like to be quote-unquote normal, which I know is like both a triggering word for a lot of people and also not a real thing.

Emma: What would you picture would be like for you? Would it be like because it's also easy to romanticize it too.

Rae: Exactly.

Emma: It's like, it'd be the utopia where I'd, I mean, because here's one thing. So, with the hyperfocus, I do have that hyperfocus where it's very then it becomes very hard for me to disengage from certain tasks. But I will get a lot done. However, usually it has to be like pretty up to a deadline for me to really focus on it. And that's pretty frustrating too And I also it has to, part of why I'm like, "I need to hyperfocus on all of it now" is because I know if I stop, the likelihood of me picking it up and remembering what I was doing is very small.

So, it's like it's better for me to just get it. But then that can also lead to getting overwhelmed because it's like, "Well, I need to find a 12-hour block of time to like, do this." And the brain doesn't really work like that. It's like you've got like three hours, four hours max of natural concentration.

(15:04) Is ADHD good for a stand-up comic?

Rae: Yeah. Like with your job, like you're a full-time stand-up comedian. Like, I could see that being a job where ADHD is like an asset. Like, I know you joke about it in your shows like you're very funny, by the way.

Emma: I appreciate it.

Rae: I really enjoy this and I am like stand-up comedy, I don't,, my I have like empathy antenna that are like too sensitive, like someone turn them up too high. But you do know, did you ever see that Drew Barrymore movie "Never Been Kissed"?

Emma: Yes. Of course.

Rae: Where she's just like...right. That's like a horror movie to me. I feel like physically sick during that movie. It's just like…

Emma: She pretended to be a student or something?

Rae: Yeah, she's like, pretending to be...It's not like a great movie.

Emma: Yeah.

Rae: But like, something about, like, watching other people do things and be like, "I hope you're OK."

Emma: Totally. Well, a really good a comic, if they're really like, you know, performing at peak hopefully would let even the most empathetic person know like, "I'm in control. No matter what happens here is fine. We got this." I think it's actually really tricky with ADD too, because, you know, maybe for performing it makes you seek out adrenaline more. But, performing now is like 8% of stand-up comedy. So, it's like all around now it's about social media editing, like getting exposure to get integrated into other media mediums, like follow through is like paramount. So, branding, all of these like much more like zoomed out.

It used to be that those things would kind of go through the filter of the entertainment industry. And if you break into that, they would set it up for you. But now it's like very much like on, you're running a business like pretty much like, right, I mean, I would say the second is it's like very, very, very like the people I know who are doing the best are very business-oriented.

Rae: I never thought of that.

Emma: Or if you're really young and you're a non-threatening minority, then the industry does still kind of scoop you up. But it doesn't, they've got less and less power now too, because it's like, What can they do? They can't make, they can have the industry come around you and they can like build you up. But then if the people don't come to you, then they're not your real friends, they're going to go away.

Rae: That sounds stressful to me, honestly. But also it never occurred to me, although that makes complete sense, that like, you know, I don't know, I guess from the outside, it's like you romanticize it, like, "Oh it's like the artist. Like you just come up with hilarious things to say and they put them together in this interesting way. And then you just step on the stage" and it's like, but no, of course there's admin. It's like what you were saying about your girlfriend's sister.

Emma: Yeah. I would say it's like a huge, I would say the actual talk about your material is 5% of what it's like, "OK, so now you need to have a social media team. If you don't have social media team but you also have like manager, agent, lawyer, whatever, and then everything needs to go, is all, it's all like synchronized around, just like social media, social media, social media now.

Rae: Making it harder, I would imagine, to disengage from social media like you were saying.

Emma: It is, but I'll tell you this. If I just posted stuff and logged off, that would be fine. It's me going on like now I have this like whole other account, like I think it's called like a fake Instagram account where I go to like, look at stuff that I want to look at, hip stretches, cat videos, my feed is now all animals that shouldn't be friends but now our friends.

Rae: Oh I have a lot of those. Yeah, there's a whole book.

Emma: How do you turn away from a freaking panda cuddling up to a penguin, like or whatever? You're like, I'm in. So.

Rae: Yeah.

Emma: It's a real, I try to, like, disconnect from the actual, like, posting of it, but I would say definitely ADD doesn't necessarily help stand-up comedy the way that it is now. Dyslexia might, though.

Rae: So, it's ADHD is not an asset but dyslexia kind of is?

Emma: So, where I would say dyslexia would be an asset is that I do think dyslexia sometimes, and I've noticed this in people that I know are dyslexic, they're good at putting like really broad concepts together. So, it's like zooming out and seeing things that wouldn't necessarily go together, but then seeing the connection there and then being able to like, like noticing like patterns and themes. Maybe that is an ADD thing, but I associate it more with dyslexia.

Just noticing like kind of like interpersonal skills in a way that I find ADD sometimes make interpersonal skills like trickier, especially like, you know, with conversation. I have to remember to like, "OK, breathe, pause. Like, you know, take everything in." But with dyslexia, I feel like it helps you, I think that anything that is hard, though, helps you be more empathetic. And that is, that's a nod for ADD because I'll tell you this, if someone was like, "We'll take away your ADD but you're not going to be empathetic." God, does that sound nice, but I don't want to be an asshole.

Rae: Yeah, exactly. That's the thing where you're like, if this is what causes that, then I wouldn't let go of it.

Emma: Empathy is very important.

Rae: Yeah.

Emma: Empathy is, I think that it for sure is connected in that any time you have a hardship, it makes you start looking at things from like different perspectives. Because I do think anytime something makes, something is harder for you in the beginning, it helps you stand out more in the end, not just to society, but also to yourself too.

Rae: Yeah.

Emma: So, then you get a sense of, you know, satisfaction there. But maybe if something was always easy for us, we wouldn't then get that sense of satisfaction. So, it's tough to, tough to say because it's kind of like if someone said, "Hey, would you want to go through life not feeling anything?" Part of me would be like, "Oh it does sound nice."

Rae: Yeah, it sounds real calm.

Emma: Sounds real calm. But then what is it?

Rae: Yeah. Then why are you alive? Like, what, what's the experience of being alive?

Emma: You could be a piece of cheese.

Rae: Exactly. Like I've seen the rocks. It looks like they're fine.

Emma: Exactly. Right. So, it's tough to say.

Rae: It's hard to know how, like, I feel like that question as I pose it to you, like, "Would you get rid of it if you could?" is a kind of an unfair question because you can't know. You can't know if it would sap your empathy or who it would make you be. But at the same time, it's like, I would love to be able to like, find my stuff and not be late for everything and not like miss everybody's important event and not be like low level in trouble all the time. It's like what it my experience of this has been.

Emma: Oh yeah, low level in trouble, just waiting for, and all those things we can do too.

Rae: Yeah, exactly.

Emma: But I think some people would say they wouldn't. I feel like if someone was like a successful author or something, the right thing to say would be like, "Oh no, I love my ADD and it makes me smell the flowers" or whatever. But.

Rae: Yeah. I feel like when I hear that, I don't believe that.

Emma: Totally.

Rae: Or people are like, "ADHD is my superpower," and I'm like "Tell me about that."

Emma: Right. And then they're like, "And that's why you should buy my vitamin gummies that help enhance it" or whatever the hell.

Rae: Exactly. Here, just took $12.99.

Emma: Exactly.

Rae: Can be your superpower too.

Thanks for listening to this episode of "Hyperfocus." If you have any questions or ideas for future topics, write me an email or send a voice memo to hyperfocus@understood.org.

"Hyperfocus" is made by me, Rae Jacobson, and Cody Nelson. Our video producer is Calvin Knie. Our music comes from Blue Dot Sessions and Justin D. Wright mixes the show. Ash Beecher is our supervising producer. Briana Berry is our production director and Neil Drumming is our editorial director.

This show is brought to you by Understood.org. Our executive directors are Laura Key, Scott, Cocchiere, and Seth Melnick. Understood is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences like ADHD and dyslexia. If you want to help us continue this work, you can donate at understood.org/give.